Fish immune to disease?

brandon429

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Case in point



fix him without quarantine and fallow we watch live time.

I wanted to get away from any input that doesn’t involve actually working live time in a thread where someone asks for help.

if he was moving homes or upgrading reefs we have a 100% certain way to do so, and his tank will be great.


if he was changing sandbeds, again we are 100% practiced we would list the steps



*******for the love of pete*******

someone do the same for fish disease. Post that someone can help him, do, and we watch for live time updates. Take over his feeding and tank maturation approach. Recommend he buy kp aquatics rock if you need age on his tank.


if someone doesn’t work that reef without quarantine then I’ll be skeptical another four years starting now.


if he had gha we have a method, he would have no gha by tomorrow



if he wanted to change out his rocks for new rocks, and skip the cycle, we can do that easily.


fish disease, someone convert all the links papers and studies here into action and lemme see it right in that thread.

if we can’t help that reefer, all claims here against qt which he’s preparing for are just puffery. It’s darn good theory with lots of potential but right there above is old fashioned work, needing help now, not in five more years of tinkering.
 
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jx fang

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I prepare 2 bucket with 50% new mixed and one with 50% DT saltwater. Put a pump in each. Day 1 - put in the fish in bucket 1. Day 2 move it to bucket 2, Rinse bucket 1 with tap water - prepare a new 5 L newly mixed and 5 L old tank water. Put something over the bucket (dark and in room temperature). Day 3 switch the fish again and redo bucket 2 ---- and so on for 7 - 8 days. Do not feed during the treatment period

Really, this is unbelievable, I’m speechless.
I’ll leave you guys alone, man.
Just enjoy your own reef tank.
But just try, just try a bit more, not to confuse beginners[or called noobs from all very respectful guys].
They need immediate help that actually works.

And God bless this powderblue tang, amen.

jx
 

Lasse

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Really, this is unbelievable, I’m speechless.
I’ll leave you guys alone, man.
Just enjoy your own reef tank.
But just try, just try a bit more, not to confuse beginners[or called noobs from all very respectful guys].
They need immediate help that actually works.

And God bless this powderblue tang, amen.
And can we get your solution - its not me that confuse anybody - its you. This is a proven method in order to treat ich - very useful in the past before all of the "miracle" methods was evolved. It is build on the life cycle of the parasite responsible for the disease. If you do not know the life cycle - I can explain it for you. The parasite (Cryptocaryon irritans) will cyst on the fish between 3 - 7 days - after that leave the fish for a rest period on the substrate for more than 7 days - after the rest period it will "hatch" and be able to infect fish again. With this method - named TTM - Tank Transfer Method - the parasites will leave the host and fish are not re-infected because you change to parasite free substrate every day, after 7 days (often before) there is no parasites attached to the fish and the fish have recovered from the disease - without any drugs. toxins or heavy metals.

The disadvantage with this method is that it will not hinder the parasites that can be in the substrate of the DT to hatch later on but my experiences are that if you take out the fish in an early stage - it has not served as an incubator and rise the amounts of resting parasites in the DT:s substrate.

They need immediate help that actually works
And that´s exactly what I did with that post. Where do we have your working solution to @Maritimer problems? The only thing I have seen in your posts is sarcasm, complains about other way of handle things and that you are speechless (but apparently not "writeless")

You are free to give Maritimer your advises what he shall do in this situation and I know that he will appreciate it. But - IMO - till you do that - in my eyes you are only common gossipmonger that loves to complain about others but not contribute with something of value either for beginners or more experienced members of R2R,

Sincerely Lasse
 
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atoll

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And can we get your solution - its not me that confuse anybody - its you. This is a proven method in order to treat ich - very useful in the past before all of the "miracle" methods was evolved. It is build on the life cycle of the parasite responsible for the disease. If you do not know the life cycle - I can explain for you. The parasite (Cryptocaryon irritans) will cyst on the fish between 3 - 7 days - after that leave the fish for a rest period on the substrate for more than 7 days - after the rest period it will "hatch" and be able to infect fish again. With this method - named TTM - Tank Transfer Method - the parasites will leave the host and fish are not re-infected because you change to parasite free substrate every day, after 7 days (often before) there is no parasites attached to the fish and the fish have recovered from the disease - without any drugs. toxins or heavy metals.

The disadvantage with this method is that it will not hinder the parasites that can be in the substrate of the DT to hatch later on but my experiences are that if you take out the fish in an early stage - it has not served as an incubator and rise the amounts of resting parasites in the DT:s substrate.


And that´s exactly what I did with that post. Where do we have your working solution to @Maritimer :s problem? The only thing I have seen in your posts is sarcasm and that you are speechless (but apparently not "writeless")

Sincerely Lasse
You cannot teach those who refuse to be taught and they will always find a problem for every solution Lasse.
 

Lasse

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You cannot teach those who refuse to be taught and they will always find a problem for every solution Lasse.
I know but hopefully someone else read the post and have the ability to understand what we are saying :D

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Paul B

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(My display does not run a UV sterilizer - how important is that to the system that Paul B., Atoll, and WV Ned are using?)
I personally have never used a UV sterilizer and never advocated one.
I'm feeding NLS pellets and LRS Herbivore twice daily, along with nori and frozen whole clams periodically.
In my system, I would not use pellets and try to get only food with living bacteria into fish.
The rest of the food you use is fine, but for now I would also eliminate that nori as it is dry and lifeless.

Also, I think most of us advocate a system where the fish don't get ich in the first place. Keeping fish immune is a lot easier than trying to cure the tank later.

In Martimer's case I would never use drugs so I would either go with Lasse's method or what I used to do is use a diatom filter that will remove any parasites that go through it with no medication.

I realize most people don't have one of those, but I can't help that. If we want to climb a mountain we need the equipment for that and if we want to keep fish a certain way, we need equipment for that too.

Many times I get a fish covered in parasites because I got it for free. Put it in a tank for a few days or until the parasites go through their cycle and drop off the fish and it is fine. I recently posted about a copperband like that.

I would also get some live food into those fish. So live food occasionally ( 3 times a week) such as worms and a diatom filter is my best advice for fish that are already sick.

But we all wrote volumes on how to prevent this in the first place.
If you use copper, your fish will most likely always have problems because we are trying to make the fish healthier, not poison it along with the parasites and everything else that will upset the system beyond repair.

Good Luck
 

Maritimer

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I prepare 2 bucket with 50% new mixed and one with 50% DT saltwater. Put a pump in each. Day 1 - put in the fish in bucket 1. Day 2 move it to bucket 2, Rinse bucket 1 with tap water - prepare a new 5 L newly mixed and 5 L old tank water. Put something over the bucket (dark and in room temperature). Day 3 switch the fish again and redo bucket 2 ---- and so on for 7 - 8 days. Do not feed during the treatment period
Lasse, thank you ... I'm curious though ... if ich is in the display, wouldn't the 50% display water be exposing the tang to additional ich parasites?


In my system, I would not use pellets and try to get only food with living bacteria into fish.
The rest of the food you use is fine, but for now I would also eliminate that nori as it is dry and lifeless.

Also, I think most of us advocate a system where the fish don't get ich in the first place. Keeping fish immune is a lot easier than trying to cure the tank later.

In Martimer's case I would never use drugs so I would either go with Lasse's method or what I used to do is use a diatom filter that will remove any parasites that go through it with no medication.
Thank you, Paul! I'm trying to get to a system where they don't get ich, honest!! (And I have a copy of your book 'round here - one of my inspirations to begin a new SW tank.)
I can bump up the percentage of food that's either LRS (I've got hold of "Reef Frenzy" and "Fish Frenzy", which contains blackworms and polychaete worms, albeit frozen ones, as well as the "Herbivore Frenzy") or clams. What would you recommend, aside from nori, to meet the tangs' herbivorous requirements? (I do give them any hair and bubble algae that I harvest from the overflows, but that's more of an occasional treat - they're just overflows, and there's a lot of tangs...) I might be able to collect some ulva / sea lettuce, but I'm in western Long Island Sound - would any potential petroleum coating on the ulva be a problem?

Will have to see if I can come up with a diatom filter - I haven't seen one in a shop in years ... of course, most of my local shops are either Petcos or kinda boutique.

~Bruce
 

Lasse

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Lasse, thank you ... I'm curious though ... if ich is in the display, wouldn't the 50% display water be exposing the tang to additional ich parasites?
They need to find a host rather fast and they hatch probably most in the dawn. That's the reason why people often see a serve infection in the morning but fewer parasites in the evening. The ones that should leave that day have left and after xx:xx there is no new for reinfection - IMO. If you mix the water in the evening before the day you should use it - there is small chance that you get in any new parasites. In the beginning of an infection - there is few parasites hatching, hence lower the infection from the 50% used water

However it is a balancing act - too much new water - stress on the fish - to much tank water - x % possibility to get with free swimming parasites. When I have done this - I always prepare the new bucket one day before I will use it with exception of the first bucket. In this way it will be around 24 hour after latest hatch.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Squidward

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I would avoid advice from people who don't qurantine no matter how many years they've been in the hobby. Having an ich free tanks has been great!
 

Lasse

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I would avoid advice from people who don't qurantine no matter how many years they've been in the hobby. Having an ich free tanks has been great!
Yes it is indeed and my tanks have been free from the disease "marine white spot" for many years, and many different tanks - and this without any prophylactic QT or QT at all. Only adaption, And whats happen with your parasite free tank if, If you get in a single parasite by mistake? I do not know if my tank is free of the parasite but I indeed know that it is free from the disease caused by this parasite. Hopefully - I will later on know if my tank have any trace of containing the parasite Cryptocaryon irritans or not.

And what do you answer @Maritimer that have done the full QT protocol and still get the disease on a newcomer?

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Paul B

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Martimer, I know tangs normally eat algae most of the time, I have been diving most of my life and thats what they eat, but I have not found they they need it. I can only go by my experience here and I have always had Hippo tangs and they never get nori or any other algae. My last one was 10 years old.

The one I have now is the best looking Hippo I have ever seen, bright royal blue and in 2 years has never even seen algae. Of course it won't hurt. There is very little nutrition in seaweed which is why tangs, algae bleenies, horses, hippopotamuses, elephants, manatees, rhino's, vegans etc, have to constantly graze all day.



I also don't think he will eat Ulva from the Sound. Mine never did, it's kind of thick. There is an algae they eat from there that you can find during low tide. It is stringy like thin spaghetti and bright green. You find it attached to small rocks in the sand on an ebbing tide. They love that but also not needed.

If I were you, I would get a white worm culture and feed them 3 times a day.
I am in the eastern part of Long Island or I would give you some to start a culture. You can take the ferry here if you like. :cool:

You can collect amphipods where you live and they are great and will reproduce in your tank. Just lift some porous rocks at low tide.




Now that you already have ich in your tank that is actually a good thing and the only way your fish can become immune. If you try to keep a tank ich free like Squidward, your fish will always be susceptible which is why there are no quarantined, ich free, old healthy tanks. It is not natural.

I know about the worms in LRS foods. The owner, Larry spoke to me about them and I advised him to add them. They are great. I use his food every day and think it is the absolute best. But supplement it and all commercial frozen foods with at least some freshly frozen (by you) and live foods like worms if you can especially if you want to keep tangs. It's just easier.

I would avoid advice from people who don't qurantine no matter how many years they've been in the hobby. Having an ich free tanks has been great!
I would avoid taking advice from anyone who doesn't have an old healthy tank where the fish are "only" dying of old age and spawning. (and can show it) Old is not 10 or 15 years and pictures of those old, healthy, spawning tanks would be nice. Having a healthy tank for half a century with no disease has been great. I added 4 fish last week. No problem.

Watchmans with eggs. Lets see some of these shots in a quarantined or medicated tank





Or other pregnant or spawning fish.


spawning mandarins




Spawning bluestripes.


You can see her eggs above her.




Spawning banded coral shrimp circa 1973


Blue devil eggs circa 1972


Baby octopus hatched out in my tank. early 80s


Or some 30 year old fish with her eggs.


10 year old hermit crabs


Or some 10 year old ich magnet copperbands.





This picture of my tank appeared in FAMMA magazine in the 80s.


I can go on for hours but I am trying to show what healthy, not quarantined or medicated tanks are supposed to look and act like.

Now Squidward, it is your turn to show how a mature, healthy ich free tank is supposed to look like. Healthy means everything that can spawn, is spawning and dying of only old age.
If it actually is healthy and looks good, post pictures or start a thread of your practices.

Of course you can write a book as it doesn't cost anything because Amazon will publish it :cool:
 
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brandon429

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Readers: go see link in post 101 the sages have been avoiding since Wednesday


you just can’t get an anti quarantine anti fallow disease pro to post for live time help because they simply wont do it

You’ll get a link to their build thread if you ask directly for help in your reef

when their own tank is the focus they have all the answers, papers, research, nothing ever dies they all live decades without any admitted disease


but where the help is needed....




Readers, do you honestly believe in no quarantine no fallow approaches? what do you require as proof? Do you see how the stickies in this forum match what the reefer is being told to do in our proof link? I’ll post another help thread later on, let’s watch for patterns.


Again let me state these three have a powerful system, their tank pics aren’t of a less than stellar setup


but another opportunity to bridge the gap between painter and student was skipped, it makes me wonder if you guys sometimes lose fish to disease and we just magically don’t hear about it? Are y’all painting a picture for us that literally cannot be demonstrated for pages here, even if we let you cherry pick the work example?
 
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brandon429

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see how we spent time here talking about someone else’s disease-proof reef as proof, while all his fish died last week? If they had a plan, they’d stop in and help him prep the tank without qt for the next fish load up and we could watch that unfold in a few months time


but theres silence



that way we can track nothing about these claims.

Sage challenge: pick your own example link from new ones posted today and redeem this method by working live time for results. we dont expect that to happen btw, but you could change the standard here and get hands dirty too

heres what we do expect: more links and pics of your tank. And it’s perfect in every way admitted. The chasm grows between sage and the real world and you do not have the ability to bridge it. We know all three of you won’t be using work examples outside your own tank and that sets us back bigtime. Down with quarantine though, still, right
 
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Maritimer

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I also don't think he will eat Ulva from the Sound. Mine never did, it's kind of thick. There is an algae they eat from there that you can find during low tide. It is stringy like thin spaghetti and bright green. You find it attached to small rocks in the sand on an ebbing tide. They love that but also not needed.

If I were you, I would get a white worm culture and feed them 3 times a day.
I am in the eastern part of Long Island or I would give you some to start a culture. You can take the ferry here if you like. :cool:

You can collect amphipods where you live and they are great and will reproduce in your tank. Just lift some porous rocks at low tide.
I know the algae you're referring to ... IIRC, it's another species of Ulva - Ulva intestinalis, because it looks like green guts. I do have amphipods - and wrasses - so I don't have a _lot_ of amphipods . . .

Thank you, Paul.

~B.
 

atoll

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I would avoid advice from people who don't qurantine no matter how many years they've been in the hobby. Having an ich free tanks has been great!

Am sure you would of only to make a controversial statement.
Who wants a tank full of dying fish with itch. I nor Paul and Lasse to name just 3 wouldn't want such.
It isnt the number of years people have been in the hobby at all but the numbers of people who have no issue with itch infecting their fish without QTing. We don't have issues with itch along with others who practice similar without QTing.

Am sure they way you keep your fish you definitely need to QT them.
 
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atoll

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@bradon429, I am sorry my friend but fish do die in our systems. However, most that do die from old age or in the first few weeks of introduction. I strongly suspect those that die within the early period do so from being drug caught. The odd fish will disappear but there is no sign of disease before it does.
When newly introduced fish die they usually have no external signs of disease no itch or other signs. They are usually eating and swimming around fine then die quite quickly. These are signs the fish could well be drug caught. We are talking the odd fish that may die and the majority go on to live long lived even spawning.

Recently I added 3 african flame back dwarf angels all doing fine, no sign of itch etc. I will bet within a few months once mature they will spawn, it's almost inevitable.
 
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Lasse

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if you guys sometimes lose fish to disease
Yes - I lose fish but have never had any diseases that sweep out my aquarium. Sometimes a fish disappear just during a night - my anthias hawk is the last example. I also have fishes like small gobies with a short lifespan. And never seen any examples of ich in my aquariums.

If you want a step for step instruction how to manage a disease free tank with natural and ecological methods - you will be disappointed for the rest of your life. Biological systems do not work with general step for step explanations. And its always change and every aquarium has it own limitations. a good reefer must adapt its own husbandry to the actual aquarium with help of general principles like making such a stress free and stabil environment as possible.

Sincerely Lasse
 

brandon429

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Just this once I’m only clicking on the example thread for rebuttals

anything you guys list here as a response is deep in safe zone so it has no real weight

but if I click on that link, or read another you guys have selected that doesn’t involve your own tank, we will have progress


also
i never, ever, ever expect that to happen we know how sages and work threads get along :) once outside their own reef...


i did click on the link just to see if anyone posted there, of course nobody has or will.

Readers keep watching this trending, we only get feedback where it’s safe, you won’t see disease pros working where there’s disease unless you are seeing what’s in the stickies in this forum get worked. The avoidance is to the point now that Im no longer sure we get the full complete truth on these pro no qt tanks.

what if I ran a thread on how to do tank moves home to home, but instead of working with readers tanks, live time, in the ways they present, we used only my pico reef for all examples on fifty pages lol and any time someone asks for a customized move I just show em a pic of my successful move and tell them to copy it


Anti Qt disease pros never have to endure live time scrutiny of claims because they won’t post in a work thread where 100% of the info can’t be carefully shaped or excluded before posting it.

im directly stating I think you’re omitting some truths about your tank and that’s why nobody can copy outcomes in a practical way. If you lost a fish to a disease and did not ever report it, we wouldn’t know right?

work threads directly remove that risk of omission.
 
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Paul B

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it makes me wonder if you guys sometimes lose fish to disease and we just magically don’t hear about it?
OMG LOL. now I have to call David Copperfield to get advice on my tank.

I still love you Brandon. :)

I think in my last long, boring post I did try to give advice to Martimer. He even thanked me.
There was also someone advising people to not listen to the 3 or 4 people here with the oldest, very healthy tanks. Except of course all the fish that we don't mention that die and we replace before anyone sees. ;)

I have replaced my 30 year old fireclown 17 times already. :p

The tanks with disease are the ones who don't start a tank as we suggested 500 times. It is much easier to keep disease away but people ask for advice when they already set up the tank wrong and come for help later. It is what it is.
 

atoll

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I have YouTube channel were a number of my tanks over the years are shown all using my methods. I have moved house a number if times and each time I have broken down and sold off all my stock and most of the equipment.
For anybody interested it sezles1 it's not solely a reefing channel but most are of my reef tanks over the years there are all kinds of videos I have made on it.
 
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