For those that don't quarantine fish or corals.....mitigation?

[Salty Lemon]

When I first got my tank, I asked about QT and the person at the lfs who was answering my questions said that ich is everywhere and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. He said only the wealthy are able to support a quality qt system, so the best I could do is make certain the water and nutrition is healthy in my tank and I shouldn't have a problem with it. Of course being new, I believed anyone with the slightest more experience than myself. Especially who worked in a fish store. And in many ways, much of what he is said is correct. I even bought a UV sterilizer. My established fish look perfect -- but I've still been battling ich ever since. Now I'm not quite ready to take apart my 210 and have it go fallow (yet). But here is my answer to Rev's question: I do quarantine -- just not the same way. I have a 20L (actually two) and I place the new fish in there. I treat for flukes, internal parasites, and watch for bacterial infections. I won't treat with copper unless I think there is a chance of velvet. The fish swim around, are happy and healthy in my qt tank, then after a few weeks, I put them in my display tank -- which, as you can guess, they generally pick up ich relatively quickly. The symptoms don't last too long and eventually they get through it and are soon swimming around the tank as happy and healthy as the others. However...I recently placed my two new tangs into the display tank. My yellow tang is doing great. My goldrim is covered in ich. I'm typing this on THE EXACT SAME DAY that I read @4FordFamily 's article about how acanthurus tangs don't do well with ich and chances of survival are grim. (Good read, btw.)My fingers are crossed that my new goldrim makes it through -- he's eating at least. But I'm not hopeful. I love that tang. I recently had an established coral beauty die of something -- I don't know what. It wasn't ich. But that parasite got through too. On a side note -- I dip every coral, but I do not qt them.

 

[PYRU]

Quarantine is a great practice. Unfortunately I've never had an angel make it through it except a passer.

I buy from the best source possible but I usually add my finicky fish right to the tank. I wouldn't quarantine a mandarin.

Oh no tangs...forget tangs, don't even look at tangs

 

[Nathan Milender]

This could be a great conversation!

Let's be honest here. I would imagine that most hobbyists don't quarantine (QT) livestock, fish or corals. If I were to guess I would say somewhere around 80/20. Is quarantining livestock a good thing to do, HECK YES! But that's not this discussion is about.

So for those of you that don't QT fish or corals what steps do you take to mitigate the risk, as much as possible, of infecting your tank with disease or parasites?

image via Mark Poletti

I QT all fish with prazi, metro, and CQ (or cp if intolerant). I do not QT inverts. Corals get a dip and I do not put any diseased looking corals in the tank. Frag plugs get trimmed and I scrape them off with a blade if anything is visible. I am not sure if this matters. For shrimp, crabs, snails I buy from a source that claims they are kept in isolation and I hope this reduces transmission risk.

I do not think a coral QT would be that unreasonable. I now have lights I have removed from DT that could be used and I suspect I could get buy with minimal filtration if there are no fish. No cover needed. A power or sponge filter with a cheap power head and a eggrate bottom would likely work. I just have to come up with a location.

 

[Salty Lemon]

I've quarantined all my fish and almost all of my coral and even a few of my inverts.

If I were going to start over again, I would likely skip most of what I have done up to this point.

I explain it to a certain degree here.
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/a-hypocrites-view-on-not-using-quarantine.666/

In the most simple terms I do the following to mitigate risk if a fish disease or parasite makes it into my system.
1) Nutrition - specifically feeding high quality frozen food. Big fan of LRS for adding probiotics to their food. These are absolutely critical for boosting a fish immune system.
2) Stocking - Low stocking densities of compatible fish will reduce the chance they stress each other out and weaken their immune systems.
3) Aquascaping - Fish need to have their "safe places" without fighting each other. They need to have room to swim, too, depending on their species. 20 fish and 3 small caves isn't going to end well.
4) Stability - I use a controller to help monitor my tank. I have redundant systems for just about everything and keep spares on hand. Again.. it's all about reducing stress to the fish.
5)Parasite control - I keep looking for more information on this but I am convinced that certain corals must eat most common forms of fish parasites. Zoa gardens, GSP beds and even aiptasia may FYbe great natural defenses against ich and velvet. Peppermint shrimp are known to eat the eggs of some species of flat worm parasites. Could they help control flukes in a reef tank? Gorgonians are known to have anti-microbial properties along with being filter feeders. Dolphin rub against them to help with parasites and bacteria infections. I will absolutely make it a priority to have some in my tanks in the future.

FYI: @Brew12 's article that he has linked above in his post is extremely well written. If you haven't had the chance to read it, I suggest you do so. I've posted it to other reefers' threads before.

 

[Brew12]

FYI: @Brew12 's article that he has linked above in his post is extremely well written. If you haven't had the chance to read it, I suggest you do so. I've posted it to other reefers' threads before.

Thank you, I appreciate that!

 

[BadFish619]

When I first got my tank, I asked about QT and the person at the lfs who was answering my questions said that ich is everywhere and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. He said only the wealthy are able to support a quality qt system, so the best I could do is make certain the water and nutrition is healthy in my tank and I shouldn't have a problem with it. Of course being new, I believed anyone with the slightest more experience than myself. Especially who worked in a fish store. And in many ways, much of what he is said is correct. I even bought a UV sterilizer. My established fish look perfect -- but I've still been battling ich ever since. Now I'm not quite ready to take apart my 210 and have it go fallow (yet). But here is my answer to Rev's question: I do quarantine -- just not the same way. I have a 20L (actually two) and I place the new fish in there. I treat for flukes, internal parasites, and watch for bacterial infections. I won't treat with copper unless I think there is a chance of velvet. The fish swim around, are happy and healthy in my qt tank, then after a few weeks, I put them in my display tank -- which, as you can guess, they generally pick up ich relatively quickly. The symptoms don't last too long and eventually they get through it and are soon swimming around the tank as happy and healthy as the others. However...I recently placed my two new tangs into the display tank. My yellow tang is doing great. My goldrim is covered in ich. I'm typing this on THE EXACT SAME DAY that I read @4FordFamily 's article about how acanthurus tangs don't do well with ich and chances of survival are grim. (Good read, btw.)My fingers are crossed that my new tang makes it through -- he's eating at least. But I'm not hopeful. I love that tang. I recently had an established coral beauty die of something -- I don't know what. It wasn't ich. But that parasite got through too. On a side note -- I dip every coral, but I do not qt them.

I have a coral beauty who same thing, not ich, not velvet, just started to become a bit discolored. That was a week ago and dammed if I could catch him. He didn't eat didn't leave his cave until he saw my net coming for him. Anyway, it's a week and a few days later. He came out, looks better, ate a couple pieces of mysis even. Not saying what I did was right or will work for everyone. Point is, he's getting better, and all without the stress I would have caused catching, moving, treating.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

I qt everything. Macro, corals, fish, inverts, etc. I am lucky to have the extra tanks and room to do so, but for the longest I did not qt a thing. Fish went in and got fed well. Corals had plugs removed, a quick dip in melafix pond, lps got the skeleton scrubbed and in they went. Then came velvet that knocked out 4 tanks worth of fish (about 500 gallons total). After that was maintaining the coral in those 4 tanks with no food source from the fish. This was my fault as I cross contaminated everything when feeding and so on, but still it hurt.

So now after moving and rebooting a while back. Everything gets some form of QT and then observation. Copper and CP is used on most fish, my puffers get either cp or hyposalinity if needed, corals get dipped and then placed in a frag tank for 76+ days. Any new macro goes in a 10 gallon tank with a powerhead and light for 76+ days. I could not stand to lose the fish I have now, it is not the money at this point either, just the fact my whole family is now attached to them.

I will say though, I have seen numerous healthy tanks that nothing is qt'd and tang loaded tanks where not a single tang has seen a qt and were bought at some shady LFSs lol. QT and all that may not be needed, but for me it is something I choose to do.

 

[Jet915]

I had a couple tangs die from ich over a year ago in my display tank. I decided on the management route. I got an oversized UV (40 watt Pentair for 100 gallon), started supplementing selcon with all my food, nori daily for my tangs and made my own food using clams, mussels, fish eggs, fish, squid etc......havent had a fish die of disease since. Ive had a couple of tangs for over a year now, healthy and eating very well. Maybe ive been lucky but its working so far.

 

[tehmadreefer]

Never have qt'd in over a decade keeping tanks and never will. Never had any losses due to parasites. Of course, I have had some losses but those fish were typically already sick or collected poorly, ie cyanide. Certainly never a mass die off or anything even close. Gotta pick good eating, healthy, and active specimens from the start

 

[MnFish1]

I had a couple tangs die from ich over a year ago in my display tank. I decided on the management route. I got an oversized UV (40 watt Pentair for 100 gallon), started supplementing selcon with all my food, nori daily for my tangs and made my own food using clams, mussels, fish eggs, fish, squid etc......havent had a fish die of disease since. Ive had a couple of tangs for over a year now, healthy and eating very well. Maybe ive been lucky but its working so far.

This is interesting - in a different tank - I had a similar situation (Though the tangs didnt die) - I never had another outbreak - however I also didnt use a UV, use selcon, nori, or home made food (except for occasional shrimp/beef heart) (I used a premium flake food).... So - its interesting right? there has to be a missing link somewhere that does not completely relate to the issues you raised.

I think its immunity (starting out) and being maintained. The thing I read here is that good nutrition is paramount for immune function - stress causes elevated cortisol, etc. The truth is probably a little different. In studies - it has been shown that very poor nutrition causes decreased immune function (in lab tests) - does that translate to the animal itself - maybe - maybe not. Stress (even netting a fish) causes elevated cortisol - which is associated with decreased immune function in the testtube is it that significant in real life? IDK

 

[webmanny]

My plan is always the same. I don't QT, I only buy from one LFS and I normally pay for what I want and ask him to QT it for me. He keeps the fish on a "Sold" tank he has and I go there weekly anyways to say hi, see what else is new and look at the fish I bought. When I feel comfortable and he gives it the green light, I take it home.

If your LFS cares about the hobby as much as you do, they should have no problem doing this for you.

I have never had any issues doing things this way so far, but it might also be luck.

 

[Sailingeric]

I am similar to Webmanny. My LFS does a good job of treating their tanks and having most of the fish separated and I have never had a problem.

 

[4FordFamily]

My plan is always the same. I don't QT, I only buy from one LFS and I normally pay for what I want and ask him to QT it for me. He keeps the fish on a "Sold" tank he has and I go there weekly anyways to say hi, see what else is new and look at the fish I bought. When I feel comfortable and he gives it the green light, I take it home.

If your LFS cares about the hobby as much as you do, they should have no problem doing this for you.

I have never had any issues doing things this way so far, but it might also be luck.

I am similar to Webmanny. My LFS does a good job of treating their tanks and having most of the fish separated and I have never had a problem.

For anyone curious, I have an article on this very topic as well. The short of it, is that an LFS isn't really able to quarantine and ensure clean fish. Unfortunately, haphazard quarantine can do more damage than good, harming the immune response to no real effective end. I know these are sensitive topics, and not something we want to read/hear.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/lfs-fish-“treatment”-the-“sudden”-need-for-quarantine.308/

 

[trmiv]

I QT fish but mainly for observation. I will treat with prazipro because it’s easy to do but that’s really it. One of the biggest reasons I do an observation/QT tank is most LFS around here keep their fish systems at 1.018-1.019 and I don’t want to acclimate fish long enough to go to 1.026. So I just set my observation tank at whatever the source fish water is. Makes it much easier. Then I do 30 days with two prazi treatments.

 

[MartinWaite]

In over 30 years I've never QT a fish or a frag and touch wood I've never had ich or velvet my personal view is that the fish has suffered enough from been caught off the reef and put in a small 9inch cube and not fed for a few days prior to being caught up again and bagged up and put on a plane for upto 24 hours before being released into another little cube or if lucky a bit bigger tank then it swims around and around feeding when food is dumped in the tank then being caught up again and put into a shop tank where loads of strange faces keep looking at it. Then guess what someone's bought it so it's caught up again and if its lucky it goes straight into a final tank where it's feed several times a day and we'll looked after. If it's unlucky it e ds up in a empty tank except for some strange round bits of plastic pipe and gets all kinds of chemicals dumped on it for a month before its caught up to be moved to its final home if it makes it.

Yes to me to qt a fish is to stress it out to the max.
I spend quality time with fish and only if I'm totally happy with a fish wl I buy it otherwise I will forget it or ask the lfs to hold me it till it's ok and any good lfs will do that.

Coral I again give it a good look prior to purchase and I will dip these in dettol 3ml to 1 litre salt water then rinse in some tank water and give another inspection before it goes in my rack for a few days before being placed where I'd like it to be.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am very selective in where I get my livestock from and Always look for the following:.
Coloration
Breathing
Interest in food or feeding
Fins and tail ( damage or rot)
eyes (not sunken or cloudy)
Interaction with other tankmates
body mass (thin or sunken belly) should be uniform or plump
signs of velvet or ick

IF ALL CLEAR, ITS COMING HOME !!

 

[tehmadreefer]

For anyone curious, I have an article on this very topic as well. The short of it, is that an LFS isn't really able to quarantine and ensure clean fish. Unfortunately, haphazard quarantine can do more damage than good, harming the immune response to no real effective end. I know these are sensitive topics, and not something we want to read/hear.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/lfs-fish-“treatment”-the-“sudden”-need-for-quarantine.308/

Except when you qt a fish and put in in absolute sterile conditions it does way more harm.to their immune system. At this point they are 100 times more susceptible to fatal parasite/disease as they essentially have zero immunity.

There is certainly more to it however this is the bread and butter of the discussion to qt or not or kinda.

 

[4FordFamily]

Except when you qt a fish and put in in absolute sterile conditions it does way more harm.to their immune system. At this point they are 100 times more susceptible to fatal parasite/disease as they essentially have zero immunity.

There is certainly more to it however this is the bread and butter of the discussion to qt or not or kinda.

That’s a lot of claims I’m not sure how one could “prove”. The only proof I have is two large tanks full of parasite-free expert level fish that are thriving.

Both sides have their downsides but for me it’s a real easy decision. Just my .02

 

[Maacc]

I am very careful where I get my fish and corals from. I dip all my corals in a coral dip of somekind and all sps in bayer. 80% of my sps come from Adam @Battlecorals with the balance coming from a fish vet I know.
My fish come from one of 4 sources. One from an LFS that holds fish about 4 weeks for me to see if they are eating, the fish vet who does full qt, Elliot from marine collectors or from Humblefish. I also feed pretty heavily with a mix of live and frozen food consisting of a rotation of LRS reef, herbivore, fertility, and fish frenzy, mahi and tuna roe from my and friends' key fishing trips, clams, PE mysis, small krill and live blackworms.
I also keep cleaner and fire shrimp as well as a blue streak cleaner wrasse and neon gobies.
I add bottom food web items like phyto and copepods, isopods etc about 4-6 times per year.
It's not exactly @Paul B method but I borrowed heavily from his experience and believe most of my fish are immune.

 

[Xam]

I do not QT anything because I have not had the end-of-the-world, atomic bomb, end-all, tank wipe-out disease yet.

Once I have that, I'm sure my mentality will change.

I'm curious now of the percentages of people that QT have had that happen and how many have not.