From Durso To Herbie

[ReeferBob]

Thank you for all the extra information ReeferBob. What's the benifit of multiple gate valves? I appreciate your help.

They need some sort of valve if only for maintenance. You could leave it out of the open channel though. The full-siphon needs the finer adjustability of a gate valve over a ball valve. The other drains could do with just a ball-valve (or nothing) but they aren't much more money so I usually just go with all gate valves. Also I had not decided yet which of those drains to make the full siphon when I initially set this up. My return pump is right on the cusp of providing too much water for the 2 smaller drains at full siphon.

 

[TheEngineer]

I haven't read this whole thread yet but why do you need to change from durso which should already be very quiet. no tank will ever be dead silent. I have 90% of the people that see my ask me how my tank isnso quiet.
I run durso's. It is not dead silent. When I walk in my front door I want to know my tank is running. No flushing or gurgling, just running.

Herbie overflows give you laminar flow and can handle more flow than a similarly sized durso. I've never had good luck with silencing a durso, there's always some noise. You wouldn't even know my tank was in the room if it wasn't for my skimmer. It is dead silent.

 

[TheEngineer]

They need some sort of valve if only for maintenance. You could leave it out of the open channel though. The full-siphon needs the finer adjustability of a gate valve over a ball valve. The other drains could do with just a ball-valve (or nothing) but they aren't much more money so I usually just go with all gate valves. Also I had not decided yet which of those drains to make the full siphon when I initially set this up. My return pump is right on the cusp of providing too much water for the 2 smaller drains at full siphon.

Gate valves are muuuuuuch easier to tune. Definitely go with one if you can.

 

[Brew12]

Herbie overflows give you laminar flow and can handle more flow than a similarly sized durso. I've never had good luck with silencing a durso, there's always some noise. You wouldn't even know my tank was in the room if it wasn't for my skimmer. It is dead silent.

My Durso runs very quiet but it took a lot of work to get it that way. Well, it is quiet until a snail decides it needs to block the air line or take a ride down the pipe. Sometimes I think the snails have potty humor and purposely mess it up so it sounds like a toilet flushing.

If I were to do it over I would set it up as a Herbie or Bean animal.

 

[Wavemode]

I have a ball valve and a union on my return pump. I got too big of return pump by mistake and couldn't return it so hat to tone it down from 950 gph to 300 or so. I plan to have a gate valve and a union on the main syphon of my Herbie. Emergency pipe will get union only I imagine

 

[TheEngineer]

My Durso runs very quiet but it took a lot of work to get it that way. Well, it is quiet until a snail decides it needs to block the air line or take a ride down the pipe. Sometimes I think the snails have potty humor and purposely mess it up so it sounds like a toilet flushing.

If I were to do it over I would set it up as a Herbie or Bean animal.

And they only crawl on top of it at 3AM so you wake up thinking something is wrong.

 

[TheEngineer]

I have a ball valve and a union on my return pump. I got too big of return pump by mistake and couldn't return it so hat to tone it down from 950 gph to 300 or so. I plan to have a gate valve and a union on the main syphon of my Herbie. Emergency pipe will get union only I imagine

You could also tee off of the return line back into your sump with the extra flow. You put a valve on the part that goes into the sump. 600 gph is a lot to absorb though. Having it direct back into the sump increases your dwell time in the sump too which is good for your skimmer or macro algae if you have any.

 

[Wavemode]

Is the stock drain on my Durso suppose to be submerged? Mine is barely inside the top of the filter sock and splashes down about 6 inches. A longer drain with a union there would make it a lot quieter

 

[TheEngineer]

Is the stock drain on my Durso suppose to be submerged? Mine is barely inside the top of the filter sock and splashes down about 6 inches. A longer drain with a union there would make it a lot quieter

If you convert to a herbie, definitely. With a Durso it will be quieter underwater unless it is pulling excess air, then it will burp every few minutes.

 

[Brew12]

You could also tee off of the return line back into your sump with the extra flow. You put a valve on the part that goes into the sump. 600 gph is a lot to absorb though. Having it direct back into the sump increases your dwell time in the sump too which is good for your skimmer or macro algae if you have any.

That will also be useful if you ever want to run reactors off of your return line.

 

[Wavemode]

I'm used to the burping with my Durso. There's a few short periods (minutes) throughout the day when it's silent. I assume that's when its equalized. I'm anxious to go Herbie on this one

 

[Wavemode]

I have chaetomorpha, skimmer, and reactor. I suppose a manifold on that overkill pump of mine could theoretically run everything. But wouldn't that be a crap ton of tuning all the time?

 

[ReeferBob]

Let's take these one at a time. Again, I think there is some sound advice in here, but it is mixed with poor practice.

And what happens when the water evaporates in the sump? The difference between sucking a little air and sucking just air is about 1/4". It depends on the return section, but that's about 1.25 cups of water in the SCA sump. I won't get into every nitty gritty detail here, this is just bad advice even as a fall back plan.

It is a lot more than 1/4". The impeller in this pump is pretty large. I suspect a full gallon of water or possibly more would be able to evaporate before it is actually dry. This is also not a running state that is expected to last for any length of time.

It is called an emergency drain because its job is to handle the full flow of the return pump should the primary drain become clogged. I refer to that situation as an emergency, but the name isn't important. If your second drain can't handle the full flow of your return pump, you can get a flood when the primary drain clogs. See my previous post about why having your DT "absorb" the extra volume from your sump is a bad idea. The second drain is not needed to tune the siphon, it is however part of the drain system. You can run your tank off of just one siphon if you were able to tune it perfectly and never have the lines foul. The second drain takes up any extra flow that your siphon isn't handling. As the water level in your sump changes due to evap the level in your tank will also change slightly. Rather than needing to constantly adjust your siphon, the second drain handles the difference.

And again, I DON'T call it an emergency drain since I don't think an emergency drain is needed, and I prove that with this video. The video clearly shows a flood is not possible. And again, the 2nd drain IS needed to tune the siphon. Have you ever tried to maintain a full siphon without an open channel for any length of time? I have. "If you were able to tune it perfectly" - you can stop there, you can't.

This is not true:

As the water level in your sump changes due to evap the level in your tank will also change slightly.

As long as the siphon is maintained, so will the water level. This system can fluctuate as much as 3 gallons without any effect on the water level in the DT or the overflow compartments.

I agree, you want the second drain higher than the siphon. The difference in height between them represents the amount of water that can flux within the overflow your system can handle. If it is too small, you'll have a hard time finding that happy medium. Too big and you wind up draining a lot of extra water to your sump when the pump is off. That may not be a big deal if your sump is properly sized for the back flow.

I don't understand the flux logic. If the siphon is running, the levels are the same, all the time. The level within the overflow effects 2 things.

1: noise level from water cascading over the edge of the overflow
2: amount of extra water that will drain back to sump when the pump is off. The higher the full siphon, the less that will drain. This can be mitigated with proper system design. ie: my system can handle the entire volume of the overflow back to the sump. Keep in mind your standpipes should not be glued in (for maintenance reasons) they should be just set in place (I prefer friction fit) so they are not water tight at the bottom and eventually could leak back in the sump. This volume needs to be accounted for in the system design.

*****
The scenario shown in the video works with the system shown. One can decide of this setup will translate into your particular scenario. Rimless tanks, wavemakers, lower volumes, etc, etc are for those that have these variations to test and ensure are appropriate as each setup is a little different.

I have heard a lot of what you say, which is, quite frankly, what prompted me to make the video. It is worth 1000's of words.

One thing I do want to point out is I do not have an ATO set up on this tank. I add water daily at the moment. I have an ATO system I am designing (using the Tunze Osmolator) that will allow the tank to run as safely and flood free as it does now while also adding the convenience of an ATO. Just adding an ATO to this setup depending on how much the ATO holds could result in a flood (but probably won't). Keep in mind though, most ATOs have an auto-shutdown if they pump too much water (if the pump runs too long). My Tunze Osmolator pumps maybe 1/2 gallon before it will shut down (permanently until I reset it). JBJs also have this feature.

 

[TheEngineer]

I have chaetomorpha, skimmer, and reactor. I suppose a manifold on that overkill pump of mine could theoretically run everything. But wouldn't that be a crap ton of tuning all the time?

Nope, the flow through those sections should be pretty consistent. You really just need to run one line to the reactor and one to the drain section. The line in the drain feeds your skimmer and chaeto ultimately.

 

[ReeferBob]

I'm used to the burping with my Durso. There's a few short periods (minutes) throughout the day when it's silent. I assume that's when its equalized. I'm anxious to go Herbie on this one

Burping or flushing with a Durso means there is too much return flow. If it is once in awhile, you can probably live with it, but if it is continuous, back off the return flow.

 

[ReeferBob]

I have chaetomorpha, skimmer, and reactor. I suppose a manifold on that overkill pump of mine could theoretically run everything. But wouldn't that be a crap ton of tuning all the time?

The problem using the return pump to feed other things is you tend to short cycle your return water. Meaning it circulates around your sump without returning to your DT. Eventually all the water will get turned over but just to point this out. I have a separate small pump that originates in my 1st sump chamber, goes through my UV filter, and exits in the center section.

 

[TheEngineer]

It is a lot more than 1/4". The impeller in this pump is pretty large. I suspect a full gallon of water or possibly more would be able to evaporate before it is actually dry. This is also not a running state that is expected to last for any length of time.



And again, I DON'T call it an emergency drain since I don't think an emergency drain is needed, and I prove that with this video. The video clearly shows a flood is not possible. And again, the 2nd drain IS needed to tune the siphon. Have you ever tried to maintain a full siphon without an open channel for any length of time? I have. "If you were able to tune it perfectly" - you can stop there, you can't.

This is not true: As long as the siphon is maintained, so will the water level. This system can fluctuate as much as 3 gallons without any effect on the water level in the DT or the overflow compartments.



I don't understand the flux logic. If the siphon is running, the levels are the same, all the time. The level within the overflow effects 2 things.

1: noise level from water cascading over the edge of the overflow
2: amount of extra water that will drain back to sump when the pump is off. The higher the full siphon, the less that will drain. This can be mitigated with proper system design. ie: my system can handle the entire volume of the overflow back to the sump. Keep in mind your standpipes should not be glued in (for maintenance reasons) they should be just set in place (I prefer friction fit) so they are not water tight at the bottom and eventually could leak back in the sump. This volume needs to be accounted for in the system design.

*****
The scenario shown in the video works with the system shown. One can decide of this setup will translate into your particular scenario. Rimless tanks, wavemakers, lower volumes, etc, etc are for those that have these variations to test and ensure are appropriate as each setup is a little different.

I have heard a lot of what you say, which is, quite frankly, what prompted me to make the video. It is worth 1000's of words.

One thing I do want to point out is I do not have an ATO set up on this tank. I add water daily at the moment. I have an ATO system I am designing (using the Tunze Osmolator) that will allow the tank to run as safely and flood free as it does now while also adding the convenience of an ATO. Just adding an ATO to this setup depending on how much the ATO holds could result in a flood (but probably won't). Keep in mind though, most ATOs have an auto-shutdown if they pump too much water (if the pump runs too long). My Tunze Osmolator pumps maybe 1/2 gallon before it will shut down (permanently until I reset it). JBJs also have this feature.

I'm not looking to start a back and forth with you on this. Your experience that it works for you on a static system with no moving water these few times that you tested it does not make for a conclusive argument. It means you haven't experienced the problem, not that the problem doesn't exist. These systems are dynamic and a change in one place will cause a change in another.

 

[Wavemode]

I just want to thank all of you guys for every bit of honest advice you've given me. This forum is a valuable gem to me. I realize there are many techniques and inventions that work perfect for some and maybe not so well for others. If you look at Herbie for example. He's a guy just like us who put his best foot forward and posted his idea. Now there's tens of thousands of people benefiting from that idea. That tells me there's so much more we can learn from each other and so many more great ideas yet to be discovered. I'm not afraid to fail at all. As long as I can fail forward I know I'm headed in the right direction. You guys are awesome! Every one of you and I consider you all as friends.

 

[gcrawford]

Please consider the flooding possibility if you have an auto top off in your sump return section. My ATO will not allow that section to stay low if the drains all clog. It continues to fill if the sensor is out of the water, which would in this case keep the pump pumping water to the display, causing it to overflow. This illustrates the need for an emergency overflow. I did enjoy the video though.....

 

[ReeferBob]

Please consider the flooding possibility if you have an auto top off in your sump return section. My ATO will not allow that section to stay low if the drains all clog. It continues to fill if the sensor is out of the water, which would in this case keep the pump pumping water to the display, causing it to overflow. This illustrates the need for an emergency overflow. I did enjoy the video though.....

What ATO do you have?