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Hello,

I have 2 Fromia that I got recently (reefapalooza for the Milleporella) and then my LFS had the Pacifica that I had been searching for months for a week later. So it's been 2 weeks - tanks parameters are great even coral is thriving but my Milleporella just started having issues. First it appeared to have 'threads' coming out of its arms, close to the tips but not out of the tips. Then, it looked to have spots that maybe my hawk fish or a hermit was nipping at it.. but now its way worse, more spots where you can see WHITE and limbs twisting at the tips? Is there ANYTHING I can do? Is this Star fish wasting disease? Is my Pacifica at risk? This is horrendous.

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Hi, unfortunately is really difficult to care for this amazing animals in captivity, it’s thought they feed on biofilms hence some doing better than others in captivity.
 
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Hi, unfortunately is really difficult to care for this amazing animals in captivity, it’s thought they feed on biofilms hence some doing better than others in captivity.
There's plenty of algae, biofilm, hair, there's plenty in the tank. They used to move and now they're not moving much at all to go to where the biofilm is.
 
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Viel Glück!
Elisabeth
 
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Yeah issue with fromias is they eat something only invisible to the eye and they go through it very fast with a ton of pre-established population of it and tons of surface area to self-replenish, and even then god knows if that biofilm is eaten by other microfauna.

These stars don’t do well unless the system is larger and old, and sometimes that ain’t enough cause the star is just fragile in general. I guarantee if there’s hair algae that tank is still too young for one just because hair has an established population competing with micro film for both surface space and nutrients, there’s not as much microfilm as you’d think even if it is 2 years old just based off current situation.

Hard to tell if it was physically hurt or just starving hunkering down on the 1 remaining spot of viable food but there’s nothing that can be done at this point, it’s either infected there from physical harm or going to melt over time.
 
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Yeah issue with fromias is they eat something only invisible to the eye and they go through it very fast with a ton of pre-established population of it and tons of surface area to self-replenish, and even then god knows if that biofilm is eaten by other microfauna.

These stars don’t do well unless the system is larger and old, and sometimes that ain’t enough cause the star is just fragile in general. I guarantee if there’s hair algae that tank is still too young for one just because hair has an established population competing with micro film for both surface space and nutrients, there’s not as much microfilm as you’d think even if it is 2 years old just based off current situation.

Hard to tell if it was physically hurt or just starving hunkering down on the 1 remaining spot of viable food but there’s nothing that can be done at this point, it’s either infected there from physical harm or going to melt over time.
You don't think the spot feeding some threads here have mentioned may help? I will say... I was really worried, so I put on gloves, very gently moved them (they were stiff as a bored) to the substrate in between where I could visually find biofilm (not algae) on the glass and rock after confirming feeties were still moving. By morning, they both had moved to the glass on the other side of the tank as I performed this little experiment on opposing sides of the tank. I did buy the red fromia from a vendor at reefaplalooza who had the stars mixed with coral. When I brought it home, it ended up picking a spot and stayed there for days. Then one the LFS (all our fish have come from there) called with the Pacifica, we added him after acclimation ofc, and I did notice something that I thought was a parasite like a worm sticking out of it wiggling. I know these are not captive bred and can come with parasites so they should have been quarantined but we don't have an established QT tank for stars, I didnt want to risk that as that would almost certainly end up being instant death. They are still on the glass but the Pacifica is at the top so I'm wondering if its an oxygen issue? My better half says there is no way to add more oxygen because the skimmer is doing that with the room oxygen. I have a hard time accepting there is no options. Like if I have to drive them to the ocean for a chance at living - I'll literally do that. I care more about them living than being in my tank for my entertainment. If anyone has any advice on who I can maybe seek info on that knows about Fromia - please tell me, I'll try anything.
 
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The biofilm these eat will be literally invisible without a microscope (we're talking basically colonized bacteria or some form of organism, biofilm is a non-specific description) and we don't even know what we're looking for specifically in the case of editable organisms for these stars. We might see something cloudy on the surface but that likely isn't the same thing these stars are eating.

If you're moving the starfish to where you 'feel' or 'see' biofilm its likely not the same type of biofilm they eat and something more relatable to cyanobacteria, diatoms, or dinos which they do not digest, considering the hair algae its likely the latter two present from phosphates/nitrates. Cyanobacteria is visible as 'red slime' because its more specific to exclusively a photosynthetic colonial bacteria.

The only way to confirm the starfish is actually ingesting something is to flip it over and see if its stomache is expelled in which case that's essentially it's 'feeding response' confirming there is or was the potential food in that spot.

Fromias are just a "wait awhile and pray" type of animal to keep. This is the ugly side of the saltwater hobby where its not realistically doable (possible under hyper specific conditions but often not replicatable on a whim ones) and some of them would be better not being collected in the first place. Only reason some still do is because they're easy to sell (noob traps visually; horseshoe crabs, twin spot gobies, sandsifting stars, fromia stars, crinoids, etc often fall into this category where stores order them, customers fall in love and keep replacing them, store might genuinely think they're easy just because they only need to keep them a few days/weeks vs. a hobbyist keeping it long term) and in theory its 'possible' that if you had a 125 gallon 2 year old aquarium it might exist for years but not knowing the true total life expectancy of the animal that's where we don't know whether to call the 1 year, 2 year, etc mark 'successes'. Fromias there are success stories but its typically hands-off with no special techniques just time and luck.

The only potential thing you could do is find a friend with such a large tank and give it a chance there (although it might be too late if its already beginning the melting process), or helping 'seed' your tank with some of their rock doing rotations switching rock between those two tanks off 'vibes' of when its depleted. Other than that its a lesson we all go through so don't beat yourself up too much about it, you did the 1 most important thing most wouldn't do; ask.
 
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The biofilm these eat will be literally invisible without a microscope (we're talking basically colonized bacteria or some form of organism, biofilm is a non-specific description) and we don't even know what we're looking for specifically in the case of editable organisms for these stars. We might see something cloudy on the surface but that likely isn't the same thing these stars are eating.

If you're moving the starfish to where you 'feel' or 'see' biofilm its likely not the same type of biofilm they eat and something more relatable to cyanobacteria, diatoms, or dinos which they do not digest, considering the hair algae its likely the latter two present from phosphates/nitrates. Cyanobacteria is visible as 'red slime' because its more specific to exclusively a photosynthetic colonial bacteria.

The only way to confirm the starfish is actually ingesting something is to flip it over and see if its stomache is expelled in which case that's essentially it's 'feeding response' confirming there is or was the potential food in that spot.

Fromias are just a "wait awhile and pray" type of animal to keep. This is the ugly side of the saltwater hobby where its not realistically doable (possible under hyper specific conditions but often not replicatable on a whim ones) and some of them would be better not being collected in the first place. Only reason some still do is because they're easy to sell (noob traps visually; horseshoe crabs, twin spot gobies, sandsifting stars, fromia stars, crinoids, etc often fall into this category where stores order them, customers fall in love and keep replacing them, store might genuinely think they're easy just because they only need to keep them a few days/weeks vs. a hobbyist keeping it long term) and in theory its 'possible' that if you had a 125 gallon 2 year old aquarium it might exist for years but not knowing the true total life expectancy of the animal that's where we don't know whether to call the 1 year, 2 year, etc mark 'successes'. Fromias there are success stories but its typically hands-off with no special techniques just time and luck.

The only potential thing you could do is find a friend with such a large tank and give it a chance there (although it might be too late if its already beginning the melting process), or helping 'seed' your tank with some of their rock doing rotations switching rock between those two tanks off 'vibes' of when its depleted. Other than that its a lesson we all go through so don't beat yourself up too much about it, you did the 1 most important thing most wouldn't do; ask.
The sad thing here is if you google starfish for beginners (we're reefers and familiar with other inverts, fish and coral but not starfish) they come up as hardy and best for beginners. Only if you dig will you find that we really don't know much about them. Otherwise everything tells you they eat biofilm and all. I did use a microscope for what I thought was biofilm to place them for the record lol I inspect my corals and am not afraid to take a scraping of anything to slap on a slide and put under the microscope. It not only helps us learn & identify but my 11 year old homeschooled daughter takes a liking to it for some extra science learning. Thank you for your advice. Trust me, if I had it my way - this tank would've been upgraded years ago but my better half doesn't want more than 30g and our one 10g qt tank. I'm tempted to just get my own and start the process now so when he finally changes his mind, we will be ready. 😅 The other thing I mentioned before about how researching will try to claim fromia are "hardy and easy for beginners" also claims that Linckia are the hard starfish. Any idea if that is true? I'm not going to get one - or any more for that matter - most get too big or aren't reef safe. Just trying to understand what information is true. The is by far the hardest hobby that I've ever had in finding accurate information without it usually involving a personal lesson first.
 
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In a 30g I'm afraid the only starfish you could reasonably keep are serpent starfish as they are scavengers but reef safe. Some brittles are safe too but you have to be careful (for predatory reasons, some are aggressive and grow colossal, green should be avoided especially). Microbrittles and asterinas are reasonable too but asterinas take over almost like a pest and microbrittles you'll never see once they hide in the rock. Majority of urchins are good with being spot fed nori just be careful which ones will eat coraline algae or sting (tuxedo urchins your daughter would be safe holding and they decorate themselves with whatever they pickup so you can do some fun things with them, most urchins that don't have long spines aren't able to prick without excessive force breaking the spine first, just be careful of banded shortspines, black longspine, and the red blue dotted urchins especially)

Linckias are hard but not impossible, there's still a lot not fully understood about their diets and some vary from others. Some that we previously thought exclusively eat sponges have had dedicated threads of researching and documenting success stories witnessing them eat other things and sometimes they thrive well in large setups where there isn't sponge but something keeping them alive, it could protentially be the same case as fromias where they need biofilm but they have lee-way on alternatives like sponges or other foods. 30g is likely not possible for one. @ISpeakForTheSeas might know those linckia resources better than me.

And yeah, misinformation is problematic for majority if not all animal hobbies. Even public aquariums aren't perfect cause they typically are taught everything they can be taught for the major animals like seals, penguins, dolphins, sharks, and everything else is generalized among other similar animals, they don't have "mantis shrimp experts" they just have "general marine biologist" which is why you'll see cases like the poorly kept lysiosquillina maculata at that public aquarium clint from clint's reptiles unknowingly interviewed. Similarly this is how fearmongering for some species also spreads (coyote peterson and jack demonizes a lot of things to hype up when they get bit/handle for excessive periods of time, sometimes it is real sometimes its not. Nat Geo makes pistol shrimp seem aggressive or dangerous.. majority of them are completely safe in reef tanks and make excellent harmless cleanup crew.). Pet stores don't employ scientist or hobbyist they employ minimum wage (or slightly more) workers that don't spend time researching every new fish that comes through the door.
 
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In a 30g I'm afraid the only starfish you could reasonably keep are serpent starfish as they are scavengers but reef safe. Some brittles are safe too but you have to be careful (for predatory reasons, some are aggressive and grow colossal, green should be avoided especially). Microbrittles and asterinas are reasonable too but asterinas take over almost like a pest and microbrittles you'll never see once they hide in the rock. Majority of urchins are good with being spot fed nori just be careful which ones will eat coraline algae or sting (tuxedo urchins your daughter would be safe holding and they decorate themselves with whatever they pickup so you can do some fun things with them, most urchins that don't have long spines aren't able to prick without excessive force breaking the spine first, just be careful of banded shortspines, black longspine, and the red blue dotted urchins especially)

Linckias are hard but not impossible, there's still a lot not fully understood about their diets and some vary from others. Some that we previously thought exclusively eat sponges have had dedicated threads of researching and documenting success stories witnessing them eat other things and sometimes they thrive well in large setups where there isn't sponge but something keeping them alive, it could protentially be the same case as fromias where they need biofilm but they have lee-way on alternatives like sponges or other foods. 30g is likely not possible for one. @ISpeakForTheSeas might know those linckia resources better than me.

And yeah, misinformation is problematic for majority if not all animal hobbies. Even public aquariums aren't perfect cause they typically are taught everything they can be taught for the major animals like seals, penguins, dolphins, sharks, and everything else is generalized among other similar animals, they don't have "mantis shrimp experts" they just have "general marine biologist" which is why you'll see cases like the poorly kept lysiosquillina maculata at that public aquarium clint from clint's reptiles unknowingly interviewed. Similarly this is how fearmongering for some species also spreads (coyote peterson and jack demonizes a lot of things to hype up when they get bit/handle for excessive periods of time, sometimes it is real sometimes its not. Nat Geo makes pistol shrimp seem aggressive or dangerous.. majority of them are completely safe in reef tanks and make excellent harmless cleanup crew.). Pet stores don't employ scientist or hobbyist they employ minimum wage (or slightly more) workers that don't spend time researching every new fish that comes through the door.
We do have 2 urchins, she learned about them and we went to an aquarium that allowed her to handle them and taught her about them and handling so we got a couple. Pincushion, tuxedo. They are amazing creautures to watch. I did a lot of research over the past 2 days and I have decided that if these guys don't make it there will be no more attempts at homing fromia unless viable information comes out that is vetted and trustable to responsibly keep them. Summer time will have some red serpents in LFS so we will do that to add to CUC and still have a starfish. I know theres icons and biscuits and all sorts but it would just be irresponsible and I'm not morally okay with that. I'll check out your suggestions and I thank you for your time!!
 
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I'm a bit late here and don't feel comfortable making a proper diagnosis (diagnosis isn't my strong point, though I do try and learn proper treatment where possible) - regardless, the star isn't doing well, and I don't really have any sure fire suggestions to help.

Information dump (sorry, I'm pretty chronically short on time to organize these responses better these days - TLDR at end):

As mentioned, they're thought to be biofilm-feeders (as mentioned, biofilm is not visible to the naked eye, and it's composition varies wildly depending on environmental conditions; one biofilm may meet the nutritional needs while another may not):
Biofilms are typically a mix of bacteria, cyanobacteria, diatoms, microalgae, fungi, etc.; they can vary drastically in makeup dependent on a number of different factors (and figuring out what is in them requires lab-grade equipment). As mentioned, we're not sure what in the biofilm is important for starfish health. Also, we're not sure what biofilm composition is preferred by the stars (and it almost certainly will vary from species to species).
Yeah, they'll eat Aquilonastra ("Asterina") stars, sponges, tunicates, etc. They're thought to be biofilm eaters in the wild, but - as you've noted - they'll occasionally scavenge for food too:
Yeah, some people believe that the "Asterinas" (technically Aquilonastras) the Linckias eat allow their stars to survive in their tanks - I've suggested people may want to try farming them to feed their Linckias as a result. They likely do also eat tunicates and sponges, as those tend to be bacterial sinks (so they'd basically replicate biofilm for the stars to feed on).

Genuinely glad to hear they're doing well for you - please keep us updated on how it goes, as most of the time I've heard these stars typically die off around ~8-13 months in our tanks (though I've heard of them making it to ~2-3 years if there are Aquilonastra stars in the tanks with them - they seem to basically wipe the Aquilonastra population out after/around that time).
One important thing to keep in mind with foods for these guys - just because they eat it, doesn't mean it's meeting their nutritional needs; it might be, but it might not be. With how long it seems to take these guys to starve, unless you're monitoring their health closely, you might not notice if it's not meeting their needs until it's too late.

Some ways to potentially gauge the health of the starfish that may be useful:
1 - Visual: is anything visually wrong with the specimen? (From what I know of starfish, these cues are generally pretty obvious if they're there at all - if the starfish is disintegrating, there's something wrong). [Edit: you may also be able to tell if the star is looking lean/gaunt or full/puffy; gaunt is generally not good.]
2 - Weight: is the specimen putting on or maintaining weight (generally healthy), or is it losing weight (under most circumstances, this would be unhealthy)?
3 - Size/Length: if it's not already full size, is the specimen growing? Is it shrinking (either from weight loss, disease, limb loss, etc.)?
4 - Reproduction: is the specimen engaging in reproductive behaviors/activities (i.e. courting, nesting, spawning, etc.)? (I recognize this one is not as common of an indicator in captive starfish at this point, but there are a few instances of starfish attempting to spawn in captivity).
5 - Longevity: is the specimen relatively close to meeting, actually meeting, or exceeding their expected wild lifespan (or at least surviving for a few years - healthy), or is the specimen dead/dying prior to doing so (unhealthy)?
6 - Speed: how quickly can the specimen right itself when it's flipped over?
7 - Level of activity: how much is the specimen moving around? (Generally speaking, low activity indicates poor health; moderate activity indicates good health; and high activity indicates good health but probable stress - it could be searching for food, oxygen, etc., but it's probably not in terrible health when moving a lot).
8 - Grip strength: does the specimen have a strong hold/grip with its tube feet? (A strong grip indicates good health, a weak grip indicates poor health).
9 - Willingness to eat: is the specimen eating? (Seems obvious, but can be really hard to tell with some stars - some stars leave little trails called feeding scars through the things they're eating; sometimes you can see their everted stomachs; other times, like if they're feeding on biofilm, you may not be able to tell at all - them crawling onto visible food is a good sign they're willing to eat, but - as mentioned above - the food may or may not meet their nutritional needs).


TLDR:
  • True starfish are tough when they're not coldwater and predatory - Aquilonastra stars (some species seem reef-safe while others don't) and Brittle stars are currently better choices.
  • With a presumed biofilm-feeder, you can try farming Aquilonastra stars, colonial tunicates, and/or sponges (I have some useful info for any of this farming, but a lot of this would be pretty experimental), but even if it keeps them from dying, it's probably not going to get them really healthy.
  • Feeding does not automatically mean the star's needs are being met.
 
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I'm a bit late here and don't feel comfortable making a proper diagnosis (diagnosis isn't my strong point, though I do try and learn proper treatment where possible) - regardless, the star isn't doing well, and I don't really have any sure fire suggestions to help.

Information dump (sorry, I'm pretty chronically short on time to organize these responses better these days - TLDR at end):

As mentioned, they're thought to be biofilm-feeders (as mentioned, biofilm is not visible to the naked eye, and it's composition varies wildly depending on environmental conditions; one biofilm may meet the nutritional needs while another may not):






TLDR:
  • True starfish are tough when they're not coldwater and predatory - Aquilonastra stars (some species seem reef-safe while others don't) and Brittle stars are currently better choices.
  • With a presumed biofilm-feeder, you can try farming Aquilonastra stars, colonial tunicates, and/or sponges (I have some useful info for any of this farming, but a lot of this would be pretty experimental), but even if it keeps them from dying, it's probably not going to get them really healthy.
  • Feeding does not automatically mean the star's needs are being met.
 
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Not late at all. I appreciate all your input and advice. Will absolutely look more into this, just learned about the Asterina today so this is something I planned to learn more about anyway. As I stated, I'm pretty much more ethically and morally concerned about offering the best attempt that I can so I truly appreciate all advice regardless of when it comes in!
 
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Feeding Starfish

As a general rule, soft food is accepted more readily than hard pellets.

Feeding at night or in the dark is more successful than during the day or when there is competition for food.

Always move the starfish underwater.

Normal starfish feed by everting their digestive organs outward.

This can also be observed quite clearly when small goosefoot starfish remove algae growth from the aquarium glass. (Magnifying glass)

Feeding with a food paste.

If a starfish is on a solid surface, you can try feeding it with a food paste. Under no circumstances should you touch the starfish here; instead, form the paste into a very small ball and press it onto the solid substrate nearby.
Starfish have a very keen sense of smell; it will find it.

Basically, there are no guarantees in the saltwater realm. Every species, every individual reacts differently; what doesn’t work today might work tomorrow. Don’t lose patience.

You can’t force a starfish to eat. You have to proceed gently.

I’ve had success with this method.

Place a pellet or ball of food paste in the sand, then place the starfish very loosely nearby or directly on top of it—but let it practically float on top, without applying any pressure.

Good luck!
Elisabeth
 
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Feeding Starfish

As a general rule, soft food is accepted more readily than hard pellets.

Feeding at night or in the dark is more successful than during the day or when there is competition for food.

Always move the starfish underwater.

Normal starfish feed by everting their digestive organs outward.

This can also be observed quite clearly when small goosefoot starfish remove algae growth from the aquarium glass. (Magnifying glass)

Feeding with a food paste.

If a starfish is on a solid surface, you can try feeding it with a food paste. Under no circumstances should you touch the starfish here; instead, form the paste into a very small ball and press it onto the solid substrate nearby.
Starfish have a very keen sense of smell; it will find it.

Basically, there are no guarantees in the saltwater realm. Every species, every individual reacts differently; what doesn’t work today might work tomorrow. Don’t lose patience.

You can’t force a starfish to eat. You have to proceed gently.

I’ve had success with this method.

Place a pellet or ball of food paste in the sand, then place the starfish very loosely nearby or directly on top of it—but let it practically float on top, without applying any pressure.

Good luck!
Elisabeth
This reminded me that I forgot one quote in my post above (livinlifeinBKK has changed their name since the post below to LovinlifeinGuam):
livinlifeinBKK (the member who started the thread linked above) had some early signs of success with their Fromias before they lost them (I believe they had a few unrelated tank crashes and eventually stopped trying with starfish for the moment) using masstick and fresh oysters - I do stress that these were very early, preliminary signs of success, and others have tried similar diets without success in getting the stars to feed (so they may only feed on masstick, oysters, or other things as "famine foods," and they may not derive adequate nutrition from them).


As a general recommendation at this point, aside from Aquilonastra stars (which are a mixed bag at this point on reef-safeness), I suggest people not get any true, tropical starfish to avoid them starving - brittle starfish do much better in our tanks, and I typically recommend them instead (except for the Green Serpent Star, Ophiarachna incrassata, which is not reef-safe).
It was also noted that the freshness of any frozen food impacted if the stars would go for it or not, and some people have had to use essentially little cages to feed their stars to keep other critters from getting to the offered food first.
 
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Elisabeth GER

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Quite possible.

Not suitable for a small tank.
 
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I can't say for sure that they aren't reef-safe. I have two of them in my 1,500-liter aquarium, and they're well-fed, so I haven't had any problems so far.


 
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I can't say for sure that they aren't reef-safe. I have two of them in my 1,500-liter aquarium, and they're well-fed, so I haven't had any problems so far.


Yeah, keeping them well-fed would likely help; they are reportedly more opportunistically predatory than most, though, and have been documented eating fish (I can't remember where my post on it went on here, but the link below goes through it pretty well):
Yeah, there are a handful of brittle star species that may be predatory, but the only one really seen at all in the hobby is the Green Serpent Star, Ophiarachna incrassata - as SteveMM62Reef mentioned above, they have sometimes been called The Green Death because they have been known to prey on other things (like sleeping fish) in a tank.

To date, I have not yet seen any other brittle star species cause problems in a tank, so, OP, unless you have incredibly bad luck, the brittle star you've got should be fine.
 
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Yeah, keeping them well-fed would likely help
A good diet should really go without saying.

I don’t understand why some people think he’ll just find something to eat.

Of course, that “something” might sometimes be a fish (whether dead or alive).

After all, these are large animals that certainly can’t be fed just crumbs.

Best regards, Elisabeth
 
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HOW DO YOU ADJUST YOUR CUC AS ALGAE DISAPPEARS?

  • Capture and re-home CUC

    Votes: 9 7.6%
  • Increase white light/hours in tank to spur algae growth to feed CUC

    Votes: 8 6.8%
  • Feed nori to support CUC

    Votes: 39 33.1%
  • Feed herbivore pellets to support CUC

    Votes: 41 34.7%
  • Allow attrition to balance CUC and algae

    Votes: 51 43.2%
  • Provide macro algae to feed CUC

    Votes: 8 6.8%
  • Introduce CUC predators

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 12 10.2%
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