Frozen vs. Pellet Foods

And that is also your opinion. I have linked multiple times, scientific articles on how living gut bacteria controls immunity so as I said, that is your opinion that also has no scientific proof.
Just my opinion of course.

I've seen the links. I do not question the underlying premise you rely on for the hypothesis. My company's parent company even started a human health company (Vedanta biosciences) based on that premise.

What is not substantiated (yes, in my opinion) is that fish eating supplied dry foods in a reef aquarium will have different immunity to communicable diseases from other fish than the same fish in the same tank eating supplied fresh foods.
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There are many reasons that I have for that skepticism, including the fact that fish in reef tanks eat lots of things that are naturally coated with bacteria, even when one only adds dry foods.
 
True, but gut bacteria is totally "different" from all the other bacteria found in reef aquariums. It is certain bacteria that are "immune to stomach acids" which is how they made it through the digestion process. Totally different bacteria and it "only" comes from living or freshly frozen foods. This "special" bacteria controls the immune system, all that other bacteria from your hands and every thing else does nothing for immunity.

Also my opinion of course.

All dry foods are sterile as gut bacteria goes and most or maybe all of them are baked. They need no refrigeration because there is nothing living in them to go bad.

What is not substantiated (yes, in my opinion) is that fish eating supplied dry foods in a reef aquarium will have different immunity to communicable diseases from other fish than the same fish in the same tank eating supplied fresh foods.
I do not understand this sentence. What is different immunity? Immunity from what? Where would the immunity come from. Why are quarantined fish extremely susceptible to diseases than natural fish?
 
I'm currently doing 100% pellets, flakes, and nori -- super cool to be on vacation; however, I do need to feed frozen once/twice a week though. Anyway, nothing is wrong atm but I think that frozen is always better long term.
 
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I like frozen because I can blend up local fish, guts and all and mix it with dulse and smelt roe and have my own knock off LRS reef frenzy. With the ocean nearby it's easy to get a diverse mix. I might start adding lactobacillus to the mix after seeing the studies on Atlantic salmon.
 
I'm actually curious now - can you reliably feed much higher quantities of fresh frozen without breaking the bank? And how can you feed multiple times a day? I find I haven't the time to defrost and feed morning to night.

Would love to hear details.

Maybe some do, but the ingredient list for frenzy fish feeds here in Australia doesn't have such filler stuff.
Not sure about price difference between locations but I thaw enough out each morning to feed all day. Sometimes I'll keep it in the fridge overnight and feed the rest in the morning. Some say that storing it overnight is not good but I've done it for years with no ill affects that I'm aware of. I mix several different types of pellets and vitamins in with the frozen also.
 
I do not understand this sentence. What is different immunity? Immunity from what? Where would the immunity come from. Why are quarantined fish extremely susceptible to diseases than natural fish?

Not sure where the confusion lies, but I'll spell out this one (of several) concerns I have with your theory that fresh food with gut bacteria provide immunity.

1. I am talking about immunity to a disease it might catch from another fish. Diseases reefers see in their fish. I presume you are too.

2. By different, I mean (as I presume you do) a difference in resistance to acquiring a disease organism and/or having it rise to levels in the fish that are a problem.

3. The thread was not about quarantine, but about diet. GI bacteria in people can promote a number of different processes that help people be resistant to other organisms. They need not be the pathogen. I don't see how the bacteria that fish are naturally eating on materials in the tank are fundamentally different than those you feed via fresh foods. Sure, many may not make it through the stomach, but some do. I cannot see why a fish needs a massive inoculation of any particular bacteria every day.

4. We can get into the whole quarantine discussion, which I also think has some holes in it.

A. You assume quarantine kills every last pathogen. I'm skeptical that this is always true. It is not true in human medications so I'm not sure why fish QT processes are different. In some cases, it may just knock pathogens down to lower levels. Fish then can handle the situation just like your fish do.

B. Certain types of immunity are quite long lasting, as you know. One does not always need repeated daily re-exposure to the pathogen to maintain it. How often do people need tetanus vaccines? Immunity that a fish has from the ocean does not entirely disappear in a quarantine situation.

5. You said:

Why are quarantined fish extremely susceptible to diseases than natural fish?

What is your evidence that a quarantined fish that has fully recovered from the process being more susceptible to disease than is a fish straight from the ocean of otherwise equivalent health?
 
I cannot see why a fish needs a massive inoculation of any particular bacteria every day.
I never said "every day". A few times a week is fine as the gut bacteria does not die off in a couple of days, but it needs to be added occasionally to keep fish immune.

A. You assume quarantine kills every last pathogen. I'm skeptical that this is always true.
I do not assume that, quarantine does not kill bacteria, viruses or funguses.

It is not true in human medications so I'm not sure why fish QT processes are different. In some cases, it may just knock pathogens down to lower levels. Fish then can handle the situation just like your fish do.
Fish are not like Humans. Fish eat nothing but living foods which are loaded with bacteria and parasites as it is always raw. Their immunity depends on living gut bacteria, ours does not as we normally eat cooked foods and rarely eat raw living animals so our intake of living bacteria only comes from raw vegetables.

By the way a normal fishes diet in the sea is also composed of an enormous amount of liver oil. The liver in a fish could be 20% of the fishes weight and most of that weight is oil. Some fish use the oil in their liver for buoyancy. Dry foods offer no oil as it stinks and does not dry well.

Fresh fish also supplies calcium in a form fish can use from their bones but the most important thing fresh food offers to fish is living pathogens that fish need to stay immune. We get shots to prevent disease fish eat pathogens with every meal "unless that food is dry, manufactured food" which has no pathogens, so it offers nothing for immunity.

Over thousands of years our immune system evolved to "create" our immunity by other means but our gut bacteria also controls our immunity, just not as much as fish. (I have posted scientific articles on that)

Immunity that a fish has from the ocean does not entirely disappear in a quarantine situation.
True, but that immunity disappears eventually when you put that fish into a tank with no pathogens because it needs pathogens to maintain immunity and we also get tetanus shots, measles and others.

That is why so many fish are on the disease forum after or during quarantine.
Just look at that forum. I have never been on it.

What is your evidence that a quarantined fish that has fully recovered from the process being more susceptible to disease than is a fish straight from the ocean of otherwise equivalent health?
Read my last paragraph. A quarantined fish placed in a sterile (as per parasites) tank will eventually lose all that immunity to parasites.

No parasites mean no immunity and there is no parasites in dry foods, it is un-natural, not healthy and not needed. Fish need to eat what fish eat in the sea along with all the natural vitamins, minerals "and" pathogens.

This thread is about dry foods verses real foods and I see no benefit to the fish of dry foods except convenience. So, in my opinion, if you can't supply the fish with the proper food that they normally eat, you should not be surprised if they get sick or catch a disease from another fish you just put in.

This morning I collected and threw in my tank thousands of amphipods along with mud. I have been doing that for decades. Immune fish, eating living gut bacteria do not get sick providing some other criteria is provided.

I collected them here.
Amphipod rocks.jpg
 
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I do not assume that, quarantine does not kill bacteria, viruses or funguses.

You seemingly misunderstand my use of the term pathogen. I mean the disease-causing organisms that the qt is trying to kill. I contend that there is no evidence that they are all dead. You assume they are gone (I think) or else what would you have against quarantine.

Most of what you wrote are just repeated assertions.

I understand that you are not going to be convinced by my alternate viewpoint.

My main reason for posting it is for other readers to see that there are other viewpoints that are not readily disproven, and that your theories are not simply accepted biological facts.
 
Frozen vs. Pellet Foods, which do you prefer, do you feed both or prefer to feed one exclusively? I do a mix of both and throw flakes and nori in as well. I think having a well balanced diet helps your fish out long term and keeps their colors nice and vibrant.
I tried frozen . The best fresh water shrimp available . they would not look at it . I went back to spiralia flakes
 
I'm always amazed at how we have such a concentration of fish immunologists on reef2reef! I had no idea there were so many. Given that we have so much more to learn about human immunology (my area of expertise, specifically B cell/antibody immunology of infectious diseases), and human research being relatively well funded, I'm astounded by how far we've advanced our knowledge of fish immunology!
 
What are people's opinions on the importance of frozen variation? So far I've only been feeding 1 cut up mussel every other day from a huge pack of mussels made for human consumption.
Should I look into other stuff?
 
What are people's opinions on the importance of frozen variation? So far I've only been feeding 1 cut up mussel every other day from a huge pack of mussels made for human consumption.
Should I look into other stuff?
I reckon variety will almost always be best.
I feed a variety of pellets, mysis, mussel, clam, squid, prawn, enriched brine, nori red, purple green, algae wafers, Maastik. occasionally oyster and fish eggs. I also occasional enrich with AF fish vit.

On my last survey 96.5% of my fish appreciated the variety.
 
I reckon variety will almost always be best.
I feed a variety of pellets, mysis, mussel, clam, squid, prawn, enriched brine, nori red, purple green, algae wafers, Maastik. occasionally oyster and fish eggs. I also occasional enrich with AF fish vit.

On my last survey 96.5% of my fish appreciated the variety.
You just buy most of this from the supermarket or?
 
Frozen vs. Pellet Foods, which do you prefer, do you feed both or prefer to feed one exclusively? I do a mix of both and throw flakes and nori in as well. I think having a well balanced diet helps your fish out long term and keeps their colors nice and vibrant.

I dislike using either, but if you twisted my arm then... I would choose frozen and cry uncle.
 
You just buy most of this from the supermarket or?
Yes. Just has to be domestic and I freeze it first. Maybe strangely for a fish keeper I eat fish/shellfish about 4 times a week so it’s one for me one for them type thing. Clams and mussels are invaluable for picky eaters like butterflies and some angels. I think they are the only things that everything in the tank eats.
 
What are people's opinions on the importance of frozen variation? So far I've only been feeding 1 cut up mussel every other day from a huge pack of mussels made for human consumption.
Should I look into other stuff?
Paul loves worms he even uses garden ones , but white , and black are available to buy online . Go to Paul Bs ( no Pun but funny non the less ) thread . In there he and his friend Atoll talk extensively about them , and how to raise them. I have read you cannot feed white worms every day to fish
 
You seemingly misunderstand my use of the term pathogen. I mean the disease-causing organisms that the qt is trying to kill. I contend that there is no evidence that they are all dead. You assume they are gone (I think) or else what would you have against quarantine.
I realize I don't have the vocabulary of a Phd or anyone who sat in college for many years, but I have been doing this longer than anyone else including any scientists you will find and I received my education about fish while studying them in their natural habitat underwater and keeping them every day of my life for 70 years.

I also understand what a pathogen is and know they are not all killed in quarantine as I said many times. Only parasites are killed in quarantine if you do it correctly.

I also said, many times that it is not the quarantine per say I am against, it is the "sterile" (meaning no parasites) tank people put fish into after quarantine and in keeping with this thread, there are no pathogens of any kind in dry foods so it is not doing anything for immunity which I proved many times and linked "Scientists" whom many people seem to rely on here.

I also said multiple times, I have nothing to prove and this is only one of my many hobbies. My tank has never had a communicable disease in 45 years. Are there any quarantine or tanks fed dry foods that can say that? I think not, but maybe there are. Does that prove anything? Yes it does.
It proves my method works. It doesn't prove a quarantined tank or a tank feeding dry foods can't work, but so far there are none so we don't really know.

I make "no" money from this hobby. I wrote two books and 100% of that goes to charity. I won Mariner of the Month and Mariner of the year on this forum and gave away all the prizes (except a jacket)

I also posted about 50 articles.

I spoke at aquarium clubs multiple times in many parts of the country over many years and won't accept the money they wanted to give me.

I have two aquarium related patents and almost all of those profits go to charity.
(One of those patents cost me about $30,000.00)

So I have nothing to gain or lose by posting my methods, which by the way are the oldest methods on this and every other forum. I will show my successful methods on every forum but will never shove them down anybody's throat as people can believe me or take the advice from someone on the disease forum or a scientist in Ohio or Oregon.

I think we beat this horse to death enough, so people do whatever you want and feed whatever you like. 🐴
 
@Paul B presumably then you would contend that commercial frozen foods that are most likely farmed have a much reduced bacteria diversity compared to the ocean?
Strich, the frozen foods I use here in the US are not farmed. It states on the package that the mysis I use was collected fresh in the sea and I also use LRS foods. I know Larry the owner (or I spoke to him) and I know he buys literally tons of fresh seafoods including clams and mussels. I also use worms that I grow and fresh shellfish that I buy live and freeze myself.

Everything that goes into my tank was, or is fresh foods.

I am not crazy about mysis but some of my pipefish eat nothing else. Mysis are mostly indigestible shell which is not made of calcium so it is useless, but I have no choice with pipefish as I can't get their natural diet which is mostly tiny living animals including fish fry.

 

IF YOU HAD TO OPERATE EVERYTHING ELSE MANUALLY, WHICH AUTOMATED SYSTEM WOULD YOU KEEP?

  • Auto top-off

    Votes: 54 58.7%
  • Automated dosing

    Votes: 6 6.5%
  • Mechanical filtration / roller filter

    Votes: 4 4.3%
  • Automated water testing

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • Automatic feeding

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Lighting schedule

    Votes: 16 17.4%
  • Controller and remote monitoring

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • Leak detection and emergency shutoff

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Automatic water changes

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • None. I prefer to operate everything manually

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Something else (explain in the comments)

    Votes: 1 1.1%
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