Going crazy with PO4 levels

[get-salty]

Which brand you recommend for icp test?

BRS as the ATI - a popular one

ATI Lab Analysis Pro ICP-OES Test

The ATI ICP-OES Pro kit is identical to the original ATI ICP-OES test. The ATI ICP-OES Pro Water Analysis is a laboratory water analysis of 43 parameters in a reef tank that provides a complete overview of a tank's health, which is impossible with traditional test equipment. Each test checks...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My opinion is it’s not your phosphate …. Your ratios is Ausome….. it’s your magnesium and calcium levels… magnesium is to low and calcium is to high

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

While I agree that the phosphate is not the problem, I don’t think that a ratio is a useful way to think of it, and it is equally not a problem at his level at 5 ppm nitrate or 50 ppm nitrate, IMO.

This has more:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/forget-redfield-liebig-is-the-man.1176/

 

[TemplarDred]

My opinion is it’s not your phosphate …. Your ratios is Ausome….. it’s your magnesium and calcium levels… magnesium is to low and calcium is to high

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

While I agree that the phosphate is not the problem, I don’t thank that a ratio is a useful way to think of it, and it is equally not a problem at his level at 5 ppm nitrate or 50 ppm nitrate, IMO.

This has more:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/forget-redfield-liebig-is-the-man.1176/

I wasn’t referring to the red field ratio…. I was referring to the reefers ratio - 100:1 nitrate to phosphate and that’s a general ratio not cement…. My reply was simply stating that my opinion was that phosphate is not the problem and I believe the problem is magnesium and calcium

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wasn’t referring to the red field ratio…. I was referring to the reefers ratio - 100:1 nitrate to phosphate and that’s a general ratio not cement…. My reply was simply stating that my opinion was that phosphate is not the problem and I believe the problem is magnesium and calcium

IMO, it doesn’t matter what ratio you elect, it is not the best way to think of N and P. Ratio may be perfect in your opinion, but both could be too low or too high. Absolute concentrations of each set to target levels you pick can never go wrong.

There’s no evidence that higher or lower P tanks are better served by higher or lower N, respectively. :)

 

[TemplarDred]

I wasn’t referring to the red field ratio…. I was referring to the reefers ratio - 100:1 nitrate to phosphate and that’s a general ratio not cement…. My reply was simply stating that my opinion was that phosphate is not the problem and I believe the problem is magnesium and calcium

IMO, it doesn’t matter what ratio you elect, it is not the best way to think of N and P. Ratio may be perfect in your opinion, but both could be too low or too high. Absolute concentrations of each set to target levels you pick can never go wrong.

lol your one of those people…. Look not sure why you’re arguing with me everyone has different ways of doing things …. And it’s not even my main point for the author so not sure why you’re carrying on about it … my main point is in my opinion the magnesium is to low and calcium is to high …. I don’t think phosphate is the issue…

 

[Reefing addict Clay]

You could try doing a 10% water change every week and see what that does. I agree with the other poster to confirm those findings with an icp test but if you lost a whole torch colony obviously something is not kosher

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

lol your one of those people…. Look not sure why you’re arguing with me everyone has different ways of doing things …. And it’s not even my main point for the author so not sure why you’re carrying on about it … my main point is in my opinion the magnesium is to low and calcium is to high …. I don’t think phosphate is the issue…

Why am I carrying on?

My focus for that last 30 years as an expert chemist assisting in reef chemistry issues is to ensure that folks have a good understanding of reef chemistry issues, which can be problematic for many people.

I certainly understand that there are different opinions and ways of maintaining a successful reef tank. I just do not want to see folks here assume that the idea of ratios has merit. I do not think it does and do not think reefers are well served by using it. It is not just a different approach that will always work. It is a subset of a better approach that will always work, and I try to get folks to use that wider approach. :)

I know that ratios are prevalent in the thoughts of many reefers. One of my reefing missions is to change widespread chemistry issues that I do not think serve reefers well.

Now, if you want to debate the merits of ratios themselves, I am more than happy to have extended discussions on them to allow folks to make up their own minds how they want to think about nutrients. Ideas stand on their own merit, regardless of who says them. :)

 

[X-37B]

I just don’t get it. Here’s the basics:

IM 240 mixed reef, about 15 fish from tangs to gobies.

Levels attached via apex screenshot.

No matter what I do I cannot seem to get my po4 down naturally.

Tried a fuge, and although my tank can seem to grow sps just fine(ish) it can’t seem to keep chaeto or caulerpa living, despite light and flow changes adjusted in the fuge.

I’ve fed less. I now rinse all my frozen food. Nothing changes.

All of my rock is Bali live rock, not Carib sea or another known for sometimes harboring po4.

I was taught early on not to chase numbers, but now I’m at my wits end, as now I’ve lost an entire torch colony almost 40 heads, multiple heads of hammers, and my favorite GORGEOUS lobo, not to mention a huge duncan colony that only has about 10 of the 50 heads left. I’m losing my favorite corals guys.

NOW- I will say this. I’ve been absolute trash at doing water changes for several months, which I am back on top of at 25% every two weeks.

However as it pertains to this problem, my understanding is that wc doesn’t really export po4 and if it does it is a band aid.

What do I do?? I love my animals and seeing my corals that I am responsible for dying sucks.

Coral loss is not from those po4 levels.
My po4 runs .1-.2. I adjust with gfo when it gets to .2 and bring it down to .1. It averages .15. No3 got to 26 with no issues. I now carbon dose with vodka to keep it around 5. It benefits the coral while keeping no3 in the range I like to run now 5-10.
I would reduce, 2 part, ca adds if thats what you use and bring it below 500. Not a problem at your level as mine has been that high before running a carx but I would not want it higher.
For mag I like to keep mine at 1300. My main systems mag will slowly go down to the low 1200's if I do not add it. Lots of coralline and acros in my system. I dose it in my ato to keep levels in my range of 1300-1350. Mag has gone to the low 1200's when I stopped dosing the ato for a few months. Never saw an isuue with lower levels. Im back to adding it to my ato.
I rarely have to add or test for mag in my other 5 systems as it does not vary much, however I do add it to the ato also.
I just stopped in the 150 to see what impact it had on mag and K, the ones I can test for, and both were low, mag 1200, K was 380. I like to keep K between 400-420.
I test all systems parameters once a month to verify and only test mag every 3-6 months in my other systems.
Your issues sound bacterial as opposed to parameter levels. We have all had issues like yours over the years and its stil a reefing mystery that has yet to be identified.
I would check all magnets in your system just to make sure none are cracked and leaking metal, ask me how I know, lol.
What SG level do you run and is it stable?

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

Not sure if already stated but you can’t grow Chaeto because you aren’t treating it like a plant. It uses a ton of NPK as well as Iron and other trace elements in the same way plants use this above water and in the soil. Without that, it will not grow.

IMO get an ICP-MS and see where your levels are at and if you have any contaminants.

That’s always my first step advice.

 

[schooncw]

I am trying to decrease my phosphate too, and it’s about 1.2 ppm. My euphyllias aren’t dying.

My 120 gallon LPS dominant system is thriving.....PO 1.5 and NO3 75

 

[wjdobbs321]

Add me to the folks who are very skeptical about the phosphates being your issue. And honestly, unless your running tap water into your tank... an icp isn't going to reveal a smoking gun...

I recently had an issue with 6/8 of my euphilias getting real sick... I did KFC dips on all of them and they are all coming back (knock on wood)... i have one torch that looked 100% done. it is still alive making a comeback fingers crossed.... i assume my issue was bacterial.

 

[get-salty]

Add me to the folks who are very skeptical about the phosphates being your issue. And honestly, unless your running tap water into your tank... an icp isn't going to reveal a smoking gun...

I recently had an issue with 6/8 of my euphilias getting real sick... I did KFC dips on all of them and they are all coming back (knock on wood)... i have one torch that looked 100% done. it is still alive making a comeback fingers crossed.... i assume my issue was bacterial.

curious if you bought the product or made it yourself ?

 

[Idech]

My 120 gallon LPS dominant system is thriving.....PO 1.5 and NO3 75

Pictures ?

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Like others have said: it’s doubtful that it’s your po4 levels that are causing the issue. Your inability to grow chaeto might be a lack of trace elements or some other cause.

If you want to lower your po4 and cheato is out just use GFO.

 

[mcarroll]

I was taught early on not to chase numbers, but now I’m at my wits end, as now I’ve lost an entire torch colony almost 40 heads, multiple heads of hammers, and my favorite GORGEOUS lobo, not to mention a huge duncan colony that only has about 10 of the 50 heads left. I’m losing my favorite corals guys.

Just to echo all the good advice above, nevermind your PO4 levels. They are in a desirable range.

But your description of what happend screams flow problem to me. Once colonies get large, they eat flow. The inside of a birdsnest or torch or other similar colony can become a flow dead-zone.

This is a phase I believe all successful reef tanks go through....where the flow just becomes inadequate for the large body of corals that have grown into it.

Flow has to be upgraded somehow at this point or you will experience some die-off.

 

[schooncw]

Pictures ?

Pictures ?

As I said, PO is pretty constant at 1.0 and NO3 50-75. Many of the “regular” rules-such as nutrient levels-are not really applicable to this system, as it is 33 years old with all natural live rock. I also use tap water treated with Prime.

 

[Skippy The Meh]

i would agree with others that even .23 isnt insanely high, and agree with the gfo and icp recommendations. bacteria and carbon dosing have helped me too in the past. i had like .9 +ppm after coming back from vacation one time and lost some corals. does your PO4 fluctuate rapidly? could be quick changes that do it too. keep in mind it could also be something like brown jelly or flat worms that are knocking out the corals too. may not be a parameter issue.