DBR_Reef
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There is a D.C. Version
Good Return Pump Suggestions please.
- Thread starter Frederick Edwards
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There is a D.C. Version
Fishgeek88
Active Member
Should of clarified, I was referring to the standard Sicces not the SDCs...havent seen those anywhere yet
DBR_Reef
Active Member
Quiet One has to be the best priced/most quiet/most efficient option for most installations.
Your dimensions total to a little more than 100 gallons.
Unless you're doing something old-fashioned or otherwise interesting with the system, 10x flow is a little more than double what you need for most cases.
2x-4x would be a more reasonable range, so anywhere from 200 GPH to 400 GPH would be fine and appropriate.
If you're just doing a more-or-less straight shot up 5', then a $46 QuietOne 2200 @ 38 watts would do it, delivering about 350 GPH. 3 year warranty.
A comparable Sicce, Mag or Eheim would be equally good options IMO, depending on priorities.
If you have money to spend on an armor plated cadillac, then go for an Eheim. A Model 1060 would get you in the door at 250 GPH. A Model 1260 delivers more than enough at 420 GPH. These Eheims are dead silent and last forever....definitely the best return pump there is when the flow and budget fit.
I've run nearly every pump out there, and I have to say that I prefer the tunze/sicce to the eheim pumps- they were quieter and just as reliable
buckroe07
Active Member
It's not going to ruin anyone's day if they aren't matched – in a closed system, dwell time is irrelevant to a large extent – but it's a sensible target for them to be close. In practice, considering a "normally oversized" skimmer, that target usually winds up being around 2x to 4x the display size. So the actual flow rate through the return pump would be fine in the same range – 2x to 4x the display. In theory, the skimmer is processing the water 1:1 as is goes through the sump that way.
Which, again, is mostly not relevant in a closed system....it's of utmost importance in a single-pass filter like an RODI.
Not as far as we know!
Agreed. A skimmer is going to skim what its going to skim regardless of flow. In other words, if the flow through the skimmer was 10 times flow of the return that doesn't mean it produces skimmate that fast. Water will just flow in and out of the skimmer 10 times faster that's all. For me, I focus more on how efficient it is at producing bubbles and ultimately skimmate. But of course within reason. You don't want a huge skimmer in a small tank
mcarroll
10K Club member
True there is more to it than wattage on the pump. (Even assuming the advertised flow charts are 100% correct.)
If you're in a (typical?) cool climate and/or keep a 72ºF HVAC house, then your tank probably needs just about all the heat it's getting to maintain tropical temperatures.
It's likely that a more efficient pump will simply cause heaters to run more frequently.
But on the other hand, if you're running a heat-loaded system lit by T5's in a canopy a 400 watt return pump in the stand,\ you live in Miami and you use a chiller on the system but barely run the AC.....then you will probably save some by being power-efficient since you'll ALSO be making the chiller run less. Switching to LED would make an even bigger difference in a case like that.
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mcarroll
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Just to continue the comparison...not knocking your install. I wish I had redundant pumps and a better set of backups!!
True. Basement sumps are a tough situation as the more efficient AC pumps are all designed for typical in-sump head pressures...around 4-6'.
From the "80 watts", I'm assuming you're running Jebao DCP10000's. They seem to list for a little over $100.
If your tank were 15' above the sump, that pump should give you somewhere around 600+ GPH, according to their flow chart.
The old pump at 360 watts, I'm assuming was an Iwaki MD-70 (listed at 2.8 amps, or a little over 300 watts). At 15' a MP-70 would generate over 1000 GPH. (The MD-100 way out-classes two DCP10000's in flow, so hopefully I got the comparison right based on those numbers!)
I assume you're running the DCP10000's at 100% or close to try and match the old flow rate?
Running two DCP10000's at 160 watts total may kinda kill the efficiency angle...it also bumps your pump cost up over $200. (I can't find flow curves for their larger models to know if they would be a "better" bet from a cost/performance angle.)
Do you know how much power the 10000's are actually drawing as-installed?
Any chance you could (or did already) measure the actual flow rate you're getting from them at the return or drain?
Just as an example of trying a different AC pump, assuming you have something like a 150 Gallon tank upstairs, then a submersible-only Mag 18 at 145 watts could have done the trick for a lot less than half the watts of your old pump, and at only $185. (In fairness, I'm not matching flow to the old pump anymore....I'm matching to the display size.)
But, if your downstairs sump is on a platform and your upstairs tank+stand is not that tall, then a $110 Mag 12 might even do it. At most a Mag 24/265 watts/$210 to get you over 700 GPH if you need that much flow. 5 year limited warranty on Mag's too.
Not the absolute most efficient, but they last and the disparity isn't as great as we tend to think. Plus, power saving on equipment doesn't always add up in the end, regardless, thanks to all the heat our tanks actually need to stay warm.
True. Basement sumps are a tough situation as the more efficient AC pumps are all designed for typical in-sump head pressures...around 4-6'.
From the "80 watts", I'm assuming you're running Jebao DCP10000's. They seem to list for a little over $100.
If your tank were 15' above the sump, that pump should give you somewhere around 600+ GPH, according to their flow chart.
The old pump at 360 watts, I'm assuming was an Iwaki MD-70 (listed at 2.8 amps, or a little over 300 watts). At 15' a MP-70 would generate over 1000 GPH. (The MD-100 way out-classes two DCP10000's in flow, so hopefully I got the comparison right based on those numbers!)
I assume you're running the DCP10000's at 100% or close to try and match the old flow rate?
Running two DCP10000's at 160 watts total may kinda kill the efficiency angle...it also bumps your pump cost up over $200. (I can't find flow curves for their larger models to know if they would be a "better" bet from a cost/performance angle.)
Do you know how much power the 10000's are actually drawing as-installed?
Any chance you could (or did already) measure the actual flow rate you're getting from them at the return or drain?
Just as an example of trying a different AC pump, assuming you have something like a 150 Gallon tank upstairs, then a submersible-only Mag 18 at 145 watts could have done the trick for a lot less than half the watts of your old pump, and at only $185. (In fairness, I'm not matching flow to the old pump anymore....I'm matching to the display size.)
But, if your downstairs sump is on a platform and your upstairs tank+stand is not that tall, then a $110 Mag 12 might even do it. At most a Mag 24/265 watts/$210 to get you over 700 GPH if you need that much flow. 5 year limited warranty on Mag's too.
Not the absolute most efficient, but they last and the disparity isn't as great as we tend to think.
Plus, power saving on equipment doesn't always add up in the end, regardless, thanks to all the heat our tanks actually need to stay warm.
ksed
Valuable Member
Agreed ! Wattage is the bare minimum. But if they can't complete with wattage as a start then they are already at a disadvantage.
Now not all AC pumps are efficient. But if you compare a pump such as Fluval SP series to a DC measured at the wall which includes the power supply which most manufacturers don't list, your not that far ahead perhaps even behind. That's if flow with relatively low head pressure is a concern. On the other side of the spectrum, you can't beat an Iwaki etc for head pressure, but different ball game here. Only an Abyzz can compete there.
Someone I know test many of these DC pumps and non did the advertised flow or head pressure stated except for Abyzz.
Some are exaggerated slightly but most are exaggerated by a large margin such as the 33% mention. I personally don't like to support that practice.
Eheims and Sicces test were all within + or - 5% with most being even closer than that.
Vectras on the DC end are one of the closestly matched to their specs. in the price range.
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Fritzhamer
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I'm using a (few) Tunze silence pump. It's fantastic, it's as quiet as my red dragon and it's adjustable. They are based on the sicce pumps but are quieter and a bit more powerful. They aren't head rated but it's far more powerful than I need. I have a standard sized 90 gallon and use the .40 and I have to keep it on the lowest setting.
I use another silence pump to feed reactors. I wouldn't shoot for ten times volume, that's a lot of water flowing through your sump. More water than anything in there can process. I usually use my skimmer as the guide for turnover. I turnover slightly more water than my skimmer can process in an hour.
I use another silence pump to feed reactors. I wouldn't shoot for ten times volume, that's a lot of water flowing through your sump. More water than anything in there can process. I usually use my skimmer as the guide for turnover. I turnover slightly more water than my skimmer can process in an hour.
DBR_Reef
Active Member
A properly designed ac pump should, from a theoretical standpoint, be as efficient as a D.C. Pump, without taking into account power supplies. Any three phase ac pump will destroy D.C. Pumps in efficiency. I know I got 40% of the claimed flow with my D.C. Pump, so you're right, some of the efficiency is just in less flow. Savings can be had by never having to dial back an oversized ac pump though.
DBR_Reef
Active Member
It turns out AC and DC can be pretty close in lots of instances....especially if you count energy use as a cost in dollars and include the pumps purchase price. (This leaves aside heating, where you have to consider whether heaters are using up the power you've saved....if you're in a temperate/cool climate, chances are that you're not saving any power by using a lower-power return pump. Folks in the far-south can probably do a little better, but even then the economics of these Quiet One pumps can work out pretty well.
For example I think a DCP5000 would give improved flow over the Quiet One 2200 in this application, but...way more flow than is needed, the DC pump costs about double the price, and it uses about the same power.
DCP series flow chart from am-zone:
2200 flow chart from drfost (Q1 = built-in flow control open; Q2 = closed):
Based on some experiences I've read about, it seems like flow ratings on at least some DC pumps may be optimistic – if so, that would make the comparison even closer.
The one pretty universal advantage DC pumps seem to have is head height....for them to claim 500 GPH at 9' on the DCP5000 is impressive, if true. At that height, you'd need a Quiet One 5000 @ 123 watts and that would give you a bit over 600 GPH. Price is similar between the DCP5000 and Quiet One 5000 though. For most folks with a sump under their tank, this extra height isn't an advantage though.
(BTW, these Quiet Ones are the Sicce Syncra Pro design, but made in china for Lifegard Aquatics.....same 3 year warranty as the old italian made models.)
D.C. Pumps have typically struggled with head height. Don't believe the Jebao flow charts- I get 40% of the claimed flow. I would say the advantage of D.C. Is controllability and a safer source of electricity in water. Safer not because it is D.C., because it is not, but because of lower voltage.
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DBR_Reef
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Liquid360
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In my 130g system, I love being able to control the flow with the Vectra, also knowing it ramps up slowly should power go off. In my reef I usually keep at 40-50%. In my world, being able to control these things, have a feed mode, or decrease flow for acclimatization, it's a luxury I adore which you don't get with a standard pump.
What type of overflow systems are people using with controllable returns? As I said I have AC pumps with ball valve for sump circulation that I can change if I want, but I also use bean animal style overflow and have no desire to mess with the flow rate and play with the gate valve again.
mcarroll
10K Club member
I don't think there's any real reason to change the flow rate on a right-sized return pump.
Return flow is not going to cause acclimation problems or get in the way of feeding, etc.
And when the time comes that you don't want the return flow – AC pumps have always done exceedingly well at being shut off when necessary and that seems to work in almost every situation!
Maybe where folks have elected to over-size their return pumps there are problems....but that's just more reasons to right-size....not to go DC.
2¢
Return flow is not going to cause acclimation problems or get in the way of feeding, etc.
And when the time comes that you don't want the return flow – AC pumps have always done exceedingly well at being shut off when necessary and that seems to work in almost every situation!
Maybe where folks have elected to over-size their return pumps there are problems....but that's just more reasons to right-size....not to go DC.
2¢
Crashjack
Well-Known Member
Agreed. A skimmer is going to skim what its going to skim regardless of flow. In other words, if the flow through the skimmer was 10 times flow of the return that doesn't mean it produces skimmate that fast. Water will just flow in and out of the skimmer 10 times faster that's all. For me, I focus more on how efficient it is at producing bubbles and ultimately skimmate. But of course within reason. You don't want a huge skimmer in a small tank
I'm getting back in the hobby after a long hiatus and will be running a 72"x24"x19" tank with an estimated system volume of around 135-140 gallons. The total height of stand/tank will be 50", and if I've calculated properly, I estimate maybe 650 - 700 gph flow through the system using a Sicce Syncra 5.0 pump. I'm also looking at a Lifereef SVS2-24 skimmer. In talking with the Lifereef owner, the more water you pump through the skimmer the better, maxing out at 1800 gph. If I go with the Lifereef, my thought is to upgrade the skimmer's standard Mag 9.5 to a Sicce Syncra 5.0, which would give me better skimming and a plug-and-play backup return pump. However, the skimmer's pump will probably run twice as much water through the skimmer as the return pump will run through the system. Any issues with this large of variance?
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