got ich, read sticky, still have Q's

[ExpensiveHobby]

So I've got myself in a situation. My own fault. I have been in the hobby for about 10 years but fighting ich is relatively new to me. I'm stressing over this really bad right now. I have read all I can read and I have a great understanding of the life cycle and the treatments. However, the stickys don't answer everything and I need to make a decision on my treatment today.

THIS IS A FISH ONLY TANK WITH LIVE ROCK AND INVERTS (thank god no corals)

HARDWARE:
130 gallon (4' x 3' x 16") - BARE BOTTOM
oversized ASM g4XX skimmer
dual reactors - carbon /gfo
chaeto in the sump
(2)xf150's for flow

LIVESTOCK:
Fish with symptoms- Big purple tang, small hippo tang, sm/med yellow tang, med saifin tang, med powder brown tang. (notice a trend?)

Fish without symptoms - six line, pair of clowns, banghai cardinal

also have about 40-50 blue leg hermits, 100+ lbs of nice live rock

TIMELINE:
All inhabitant 1 year plus in system with no ich, 8 days ago I introduced the Purple tang from one source and the brown tang from a different source. The purple tang is the fish who brought in the ich. Days 1-3 of new fish the purple had ich, began feeding heavily LRS fish frenzy, lots of algae sheets, mysis everything soaked in garlic power. All fish eating great. after 3 days the ich was gone off the purple tang. Day 7 ich is back stronger, now infecting every tang in the tank. That brings me to today.

MY THOUGHTS AND UNDERSTAND:
It appears the only way to rid ich from the fish and system is to run hypo, copper, fishless. I dont trust anything in bottle that says ich be gone or ich-x. I DONT NOT HAVE A HT UP AND RUNNING RIGHT NOW

Hypo - If I ran this in the display I'd have to pull out the inverts which wouldn't be a big deal. I have a ten gallon they could go in. However all my LiveRock would die off and I don't know how to maintain healthy bacteria to prevent a cycle by running hypo.

Copper - If I ran copper in my display all my rock would die off and I don't know how to maintain healthy bacteria to prevent a cycle. I also would have never be able to put coral or inverts in the tank as the copper leaches from silicone and rocks. I'd also have a lot of trouble selling the tank down the line once Copper enters the tank.

Do Nothing - Some members of my local reef club seem to think that as long as all the fish are eating well that the problem will go away on its own. I thought that might be true until the ich dropped off to reproduce and came back 10x more powerful. What will the next reproduction cycle bring?

CURRENT PLAN OF ACTION

So I'm currently thinking that the best course of action right now would be to set up a HT and put all the fish in there. Run hypo on the HT for a month while keeping the display fishless for 8 weeks. I think this would work. I actually have a local guy with a 90 gallon plus stand for $120. I think the 90 would be just big enough although i'm worried putting all these tangs in a 90 and running hypo will stress them out more. I've got so much money into these fish I don't want to lose any. I need to get a jump on this asap as Im going out of town at the end of the month and I need everything on cruise control before I go.

QUESTIONS

-What would you do in my situation?

-If I do buy the 90 gallon and fill it up with fresh made saltwater and a cheap HOB filter and a bunch of PVC then how do I prevent a cycle? Wont the fish just die from ammonia being that I just tossed a dozen fish in a smaller tank with no bacteria at all?

- If I were to run hypo right in the display how long would I need to run it before all the ich would be dead and I could bring it up? A month from the last visible sign of ich? How do you prevent a cycle once my liverock is basically nuked from hypo?

http://vid216.photobucket.com/albums...9CA82AF222.mp4

 

[Naiad]

Fishless is the way to go. There are strains of ich that tolerate hypo so you may trash your rock for nothing. You will need to decide a plan on treatment for the fish but as far as keeping ammonia down use bottled bacteria and frequent waterchanges. Also after feeding remove leftover food.

 

[4FordFamily]

All but your powder brown tang may be capable of building a resistance to ich and surviving without much effort assuming your water parameters are good.

There are many other fish you may eventually wish to keep that will struggle with ich present so it may be better for you to rid it and keep it out. That's probably also the most ethical choice depending on who you are talking to.

Now if it is truly velvet (hard to distinguish for many, sometimes myself included) then this is all a moot point, treat and prevent. This might also be a good reason to treat and prevent so you never lose a tank to fast-acting and deadly diseases other than ich such as velvet which is far more common these days than it has been in the past

 

[Naiad]

So I've got myself in a situation. My own fault. I have been in the hobby for about 10 years but fighting ich is relatively new to me. I'm stressing over this really bad right now. I have read all I can read and I have a great understanding of the life cycle and the treatments. However, the stickys don't answer everything and I need to make a decision on my treatment today.

THIS IS A FISH ONLY TANK WITH LIVE ROCK AND INVERTS (thank god no corals)

HARDWARE:
130 gallon (4' x 3' x 16") - BARE BOTTOM
oversized ASM g4XX skimmer
dual reactors - carbon /gfo
chaeto in the sump
(2)xf150's for flow

LIVESTOCK:
Fish with symptoms- Big purple tang, small hippo tang, sm/med yellow tang, med saifin tang, med powder brown tang. (notice a trend?)

Fish without symptoms - six line, pair of clowns, banghai cardinal

also have about 40-50 blue leg hermits, 100+ lbs of nice live rock

TIMELINE:
All inhabitant 1 year plus in system with no ich, 8 days ago I introduced the Purple tang from one source and the brown tang from a different source. The purple tang is the fish who brought in the ich. Days 1-3 of new fish the purple had ich, began feeding heavily LRS fish frenzy, lots of algae sheets, mysis everything soaked in garlic power. All fish eating great. after 3 days the ich was gone off the purple tang. Day 7 ich is back stronger, now infecting every tang in the tank. That brings me to today.

MY THOUGHTS AND UNDERSTAND:
It appears the only way to rid ich from the fish and system is to run hypo, copper, fishless. I dont trust anything in bottle that says ich be gone or ich-x. I DONT NOT HAVE A HT UP AND RUNNING RIGHT NOW

Hypo - If I ran this in the display I'd have to pull out the inverts which wouldn't be a big deal. I have a ten gallon they could go in. However all my LiveRock would die off and I don't know how to maintain healthy bacteria to prevent a cycle by running hypo.

Copper - If I ran copper in my display all my rock would die off and I don't know how to maintain healthy bacteria to prevent a cycle. I also would have never be able to put coral or inverts in the tank as the copper leaches from silicone and rocks. I'd also have a lot of trouble selling the tank down the line once Copper enters the tank.

Do Nothing - Some members of my local reef club seem to think that as long as all the fish are eating well that the problem will go away on its own. I thought that might be true until the ich dropped off to reproduce and came back 10x more powerful. What will the next reproduction cycle bring?

CURRENT PLAN OF ACTION

So I'm currently thinking that the best course of action right now would be to set up a HT and put all the fish in there. Run hypo on the HT for a month while keeping the display fishless for 8 weeks. I think this would work. I actually have a local guy with a 90 gallon plus stand for $120. I think the 90 would be just big enough although i'm worried putting all these tangs in a 90 and running hypo will stress them out more. I've got so much money into these fish I don't want to lose any. I need to get a jump on this asap as Im going out of town at the end of the month and I need everything on cruise control before I go.

QUESTIONS

-What would you do in my situation?

-If I do buy the 90 gallon and fill it up with fresh made saltwater and a cheap HOB filter and a bunch of PVC then how do I prevent a cycle? Wont the fish just die from ammonia being that I just tossed a dozen fish in a smaller tank with no bacteria at all?

- If I were to run hypo right in the display how long would I need to run it before all the ich would be dead and I could bring it up? A month from the last visible sign of ich? How do you prevent a cycle once my liverock is basically nuked from hypo?

http://vid216.photobucket.com/albums...9CA82AF222.mp4

Just watched video. Please try and get a direct shot of the purple asap! I think ford may be on to something about this being velvet not Ick. @Humblefish. The tang seems to stay in a dark high flow area.

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

Fishless is the way to go. There are strains of ich that tolerate hypo so you may trash your rock for nothing. You will need to decide a plan on treatment for the fish but as far as keeping ammonia down use bottled bacteria and frequent waterchanges. Also after feeding remove leftover food.

a fishless system would be a failsafe for the display but if the hypo doesnt kill the ich in the HT then I'll just be reintroducing it right back in he display

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

All but your powder brown tang may be capable of building a resistance to ich and surviving without much effort assuming your water parameters are good.

This is why im really trying to make a decision today on what to do. All my fish are eating like horses with garlic Power added. No one is chasing each other and everyone is pretty chill. The problem is that so far Ive only experience one wave of reproduction and I went from 1 sick fish to 5 and the purple tang went from 20 little dots to 200 little dots after the reproduction. What will the second wave of reproduction bring?

 

[Naiad]

This is why im really trying to make a decision today on what to do. All my fish are eating like horses with garlic Power added. No one is chasing each other and everyone is pretty chill. The problem is that so far Ive only experience one wave of reproduction and I went from 1 sick fish to 5 and the purple tang went from 20 little dots to 200 little dots after the reproduction. What will the second wave of reproduction bring?

If it is velvet then death. An ich strain this virulent will also kill fast. I would grab the 90 and start copper treatment in that just in case it is velvet. Also read the stickies on that disease. I just lost a tang to it. Ford is right it seems to getting as common as ich in new fish.

 

[4FordFamily]

This is why im really trying to make a decision today on what to do. All my fish are eating like horses with garlic Power added. No one is chasing each other and everyone is pretty chill. The problem is that so far Ive only experience one wave of reproduction and I went from 1 sick fish to 5 and the purple tang went from 20 little dots to 200 little dots after the reproduction. What will the second wave of reproduction bring?

Time is not your friend, I would make a fast decision and based on this minor amount of info on its progression I would say that conditions are definitely not optimal for building a resistance and you may actually have velvet instead..

Your fish may well be beyond saving at their current state what you see on the outside is the "tip of the iceberg" so to speak. You cannot see what the gills harbor it's almost always exponentially worse than what is shown externally.

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

is there any reason why I cant just remove my inverts and cheato and run hypo right in the display? Yes my live rock will die and it will require multiple water changes and prime for ammonia control but is there any other negative effects?

 

[4FordFamily]

is there any reason why I cant just remove my inverts and cheato and run hypo right in the display? Yes my live rock will die and it will require multiple water changes and prime for ammonia control but is there any other negative effects?

Yes hypo won't kill velvet, hypo doesn't work on every strain of ich, etc.

 

[Humblefish]

Based on what I'm seeing with the Purple in that video, I suspect velvet as well. I would, however, like to see photos of the Purple (showing the white dots) to be sure.

Below is a Purple Tang with velvet. The dinospores have already attached, and have begun feeding on the fish's skin which is why he looks "dirty" in certain spots:



10 hours later excess mucous has started to build up around the insertion points, which is why you now see visible white dots. As you can see, the fish is also completely covered - another telltale sign of velvet instead of ich. This fish was dead less than 12 hrs after these pics were taken (I didn't have access to him just yet to begin treatment):

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

im going to get some better pics today after work. Based off google images I think it looks more like ich than velvet but Im obviously no where near as experienced as you guys.

 

[Humblefish]

Start reading the two below articles so you are prepared no matter what.

Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

 

[melypr1985]

I agree that it looks like velvet on that purple tang and all the advice mentioned above.

I wouldn't run Hypo. Copper would be the best way to go right now in the 90 and leave the DT fallow. Do it quick.

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

Hypo has begun directly in the DT. removed about 40 hermits, cant find anymore. removed the cheato. shut down the skimmer. Lowered about 25% of the way tonight. Will be at 50% by tomorrow night and be fully at 1.009 by friday night right at the 48 hour mark.

Here are better pics

 

[Naiad]

That is velvet. Hypo won't cure those fish.

 

[melypr1985]

That is velvet. Hypo won't cure those fish.

+1 Velvet. Hypo wont help you here. I'm sorry. Copper is easy to come by at most any LFS and will be the fastest fix for you. There may be ick in there as well as I see some large spots that indicate ich, but mostly velvet is the biggest problem here.

 

[Humblefish]

+2 for velvet and ich (and hypo not helping in this situation.) Copper is the quickest remedy; I doubt you have time to get CP at this point.

I reiterate this is how I go about treating velvet, with much success: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

UPDATE - The powder brown tang didnt make it. He is gone. A buddy of mine with fully HT took the purple tang for me. If the fish lives he will buy it from me. The fish that remain in my tank with ich/velvet (a lot of folks are saying it looks like velvet and ich) are my yellow tang, sailfin tang, blue hippo. All non-tangs are fine.

Heres the good news, the remaining tangs are a tight group that have been with me in my tank for a while. They are still eating well and get along great. I am hopefully that I can keep them alive.

Last night I did the first dose of Cupramine directly in the DT. Saturday night I will do the final dose which should get me to .5. I chose cupramine because supposedly it is removable with water changes and carbon. Even if it takes a while. I've got to keep the inverts and cheato out of the tank for 6 weeks+ anyway since they could be harboring ich and need to run fallow.

Only thing I'm somewhat worried about is my LR. From what Im reading its mixed opinion. Consensus is that the pods/micro fauna will die off but im more worried about the nitrifying bacteria. I dont want a total die off or the ammonia will be out of control.

I called Seachem, they didnt have a definative answer on whether to skim or not.

 

[monkiboy]

you can skim but it will make maintaining levels more difficult beyond compensating for the rock in your display. you will not lose your entire bacterial population. do water changes dosing cupramine in the water accordingly. do not dose in top off. do not use ammonia binders/removers like amquel or prime while treating with cupramine. for ammonia testing a seachem ammonia badge alert is good.