Guilt in the reefing hobby

[Ike]

I was referring the claim which I bolded in my quote, the claim that most corals are aquacultured

Sorry, I somehow totally missed the bold part, my bad!

 

[jasonrusso]

Can you point me in a direction that backs up this claim? I have searched and haven't found any recent articles or numbers that can support this.

I don't really have an article, I just use my own eyes. Corals grow, then are fragged. Then grow, fragged. Obviously at some point, they all came from the ocean.

I am certain that there are still "new" corals that are harvested, but I can guarantee you that everything you are buying at a store or online was grown in a house or warehouse.

This doesn't include things like trachys or scolys.

 

[sg88]

Every fish born in the sea will be eaten by something, while still alive. None of them die peacefully in their sleep.

Fish are barely more intelligent than houseplants, and corals lack a central nervous system altogether.

I can't imagine sparing a moment of feeling guilty about either one. People are generally terrible to other human beings, collectively and individually, and we should probably focus our guilt on that rather than whether a little swimming piece of lunch gets eaten alive by crabs versus living in a box.

I think it may actually be a net negative to waste our moral and ethical energy on things like this that are ethically relatively unimportant. We only have so much energy to go around for righting the wrongs of the world, or even arguing about them. If we spend it fixating on issues without important ethical aspects it creates the illusion we've done something good and gives our conscience permission to take a break. We don't need to fight against real problem X because we've done so much good for imagined problem Y.

I disagree with your premise, although I admit that I have no proof. I have definitely seen old fish on dives, I have wrestled with a large spiny lobster under the same rock on repeat years ... I just don't believe that every fish is eaten while still alive. Furthermore people do have a remarkable ability to concern themselves with many different ethical dilemmas, attending to more than one problem at a time.

That being said, if we could solve world hunger, racism, fascism, classism, sexism and in exchange do nothing further than is already being done regarding the hobby of reef keeping and the environmental damage it causes I could probably rest well at night. But I am not holding my breath on that one!

 

[Hugh Mann]

No, I don't. Even though it's a much smaller habit than the wild, my fish are part of my family, and are fed the best food I can, and are kept in a safe, predator free environment* where they will eventually die of old age, rather than being ripped apart or swallowed whole by some leviathan of the deep.

*there's predators in the tank, but none that bother fish.

 

[Backreefing]

No guilt here , try to keep in mind that almost all of the animals we keep will have been pray and died of disease in the wild. Only a tiny percentage of wild fish make it to old age . And what we humans learn from these privileged animals far exceeded the loss from the wild.
I do my best to care for them. So yes they are privileged.

One thing I would like to add is the only harm we cause these fish that are captured. Is that they don’t have a chance to reproduce in the wild. This is a small detail, but we gain knowledge from these animals. That is powerful and significant. Cheers

 

[Opus]

I don't really have an article, I just use my own eyes. Corals grow, then are fragged. Then grow, fragged. Obviously at some point, they all came from the ocean.

I am certain that there are still "new" corals that are harvested, but I can guarantee you that everything you are buying at a store or online was grown in a house or warehouse.

This doesn't include things like trachys or scolys.

I must disagree with the grown in house or warehouse statement. Most of these corals are coming from the ocean. Some are wild caught and some are farmed, with the farmed pieces either coming from fragging wild pieces or fragging pieces that are already in the farm. There is currently no way for the aquaculture businesses in the US to supply the US demands for coral frags.

 

[Backreefing]

I must disagree with the grown in house or warehouse statement. Most of these corals are coming from the ocean. Some are wild caught and some are farmed, with the farmed pieces either coming from fragging wild pieces or fragging pieces that are already in the farm. There is currently no way for the aquaculture businesses in the US to supply the US demands for coral frags.

I disagree with you in , SPS being able to supply demand. LPS have a much more difficult time supplying demand. Some LPS can only be removed from the wild . If bands start tomorrow,the sps guys would be the last to fade away years from now . If ever .

 

[Opus]

I disagree with you in , SPS being able to supply demand. LPS have a much more difficult time supplying demand. Some LPS can only be removed from the wild . If bands start tomorrow,the sps guys would be the last to fade away years from now . If ever .

You are correct, in the sense that demand will go down because prices will skyrocket and drive many hobbyist away. Therefore, supply will be able to meet demand. I was just correcting the statement that currently all corals at the lfs are aquacultured except for things like scolys. Currently we cannot meet demand. Unless the DFW area is just not the norm, most of our stores are bringing in most of their corals from indo and Australia when they can get them. If they are really nice pieces they will then frag them and sell them that way, because they can make more money that way. Even the "garage" sellers are doing this. There is no way the local garage guy can have 2 gold torches and then a month later he has 30 of them for sell just from growout.

 

[hart24601]

I do feel some guilt. I have less about fish and coral from well managed areas like Australia where they can be harvested in sustainable ways, but I have more guilt about the amount of water I use, the electricity, the resources in shipping all the livestock from origins- things like that. Not rational however I still feel guilty sometimes as it’s for my pleasure of watching. Add in all the tank crashes over the years and it doesn’t help.

just my personal feelings, not trying to tell anyone else how to feel

 

[MarkyMark_]

I don't really have an article, I just use my own eyes. Corals grow, then are fragged. Then grow, fragged. Obviously at some point, they all came from the ocean.

I am certain that there are still "new" corals that are harvested, but I can guarantee you that everything you are buying at a store or online was grown in a house or warehouse.

This doesn't include things like trachys or scolys

You are correct, in the sense that demand will go down because prices will skyrocket and drive many hobbyist away. Therefore, supply will be able to meet demand. I was just correcting the statement that currently all corals at the lfs are aquacultured except for things like scolys. Currently we cannot meet demand. Unless the DFW area is just not the norm, most of our stores are bringing in most of their corals from indo and Australia when they can get them. If they are really nice pieces they will then frag them and sell them that way, because they can make more money that way. Even the "garage" sellers are doing this. There is no way the local garage guy can have 2 gold torches and then a month later he has 30 of them for sell just from growout.

As a new reefer, this knowledge is what I struggle with the most. I would like to belive that most corals are aquacultured but I have yet to find any evidence that can confirm this. Anyone who makes the claim that most corals are aquacultured never can back it up with any hard evidence. However, in my searching, I haven't found any information that accurately captures the effect our hobby has on the environment and/or an estimate of aquacultured vs harvested corals sold in the U. S. or otherwise

 

[Paul B]

I am not sure why we are even buying so many corals. I have not bought a coral in
many years. You put it in your tank, eventually it gets big and you have no more room for new corals so you never have to buy more.

Fish also, they do die of old age but the majority of our fish should live at least 10 years. Some 20 and clowns 30.
I myself only buy a fish after something dies of old age so I buy very few fish. I have about 30 fish now.
If you are buying multitudes of fish and corals, you are doing something wrong.

I didn't feel bad for that delicious fluke I had for dinner last night either.
Just my opinion of course.

 

[Opus]

As a new reefer, this knowledge is what I struggle with the most. I would like to belive that most corals are aquacultured but I have yet to find any evidence that can confirm this. Anyone who makes the claim that most corals are aquacultured never can back it up with any hard evidence. However, in my searching, I haven't found any information that accurately captures the effect our hobby has on the environment and/or an estimate of aquacultured vs harvested corals sold in the U. S. or otherwise

There really isn't going to be a study. It is hard hard to capture and would require money. You get the groups that want to shut it down and they will throw out all kinds of "stats" but nothing can be backed up really, at least not from a coral stand point. Fish are different since that is also a huge food source, ie money, so it is studied and funded. All we have to go by for coral is looking at a reef and see the destruction and maybe do some measurements but there is no way to determine what is causing the decline. The reefs are getting hit by so many "bad" things it is tough to say which one is causing the destruction you are seeing. You end up with an argument over which one is doing the most damage.

As for aquaculture, my reply was toward land based aquaculture. There is a lot of aquaculture going on out in the oceans. I have no idea the percentage, but if you told me 40% of the corals coming in were aquacultured I would not dispute it. A lot of the stuff my lfs gets in is from indo is coming in tagged on frag rocks. The hard part to determine is if the piece was actually grown or was it just taken from a wild colony and allowed to heal on the frag rock.

Here is a link to one of several articles on PE's website:

Coral Farming in the Solomon Islands - Part 5

The Ladies of Marau David had assembled a group of our local ladies and we discussed the startup of our farming project. The news was warmly welcomed because this was their only source of income. In anticipation of my visit the ladies had recovered and salvaged some materials to start to grow...

pacificeastaquaculture.com

 

[Opus]

I am not sure why we are even buying so many corals. I have not bought a coral in
many years. You put it in your tank, eventually it gets big and you have no more room for new corals so you never have to buy more.

Fish also, they do die of old age but the majority of our fish should live at least 10 years. Some 20 and clowns 30.
I myself only buy a fish after something dies of old age so I buy very few fish. I have about 30 fish now.
If you are buying multitudes of fish and corals, you are doing something wrong.

I didn't feel bad for that delicious fluke I had for dinner last night either.
Just my opinion of course.

There aren't many people like you that can be content with what they have. Too many of my friends have to get a new car every 2 year, move to a new house every 4 or 5 years, new job every few years. They are just never content. Plus with we are in America, the land of glutony. No one is content with just one tank. We all have to have several and/or bigger. I get the same looks I'm sure you get when I tell fellow reefers I've had my 75 gallon tank for 20 years. They can't believe I haven't "upgraded" to a bigger tank by now.

 

[Paul B]

Opus this is true, but there aren't many people as old as me in this hobby. In time, if you live long enough as I did, you reach a point where you want less.
I have just one tank. There was a time when I had 14. I had breeding tanks, experiment tanks, grow out tanks, local creature tanks, invert tanks, sherman tanks etc.

But after a while, after you accomplished all those things, bred everything you wanted to breed, kept all the creatures you wanted to keep, collected all you wanted, much of the thrill is gone.

I can buy a few cars, I have one and my wife has one. I see no reason for more cars but as you said, when I was young, I had to rebuild them, race them, replace them, change the engines etc. . (I may get a Model A Ford so I have a little gluttony left)

I can also travel to all sorts of weird places, but I have been to all the weird places I wanted to go.

My tank is full of fish. I do sometimes go to a lfs and look around but I have to stop myself from buying anything because I just can't fit any more and if I got any more fish I would have to hold them by their tails so that just their head was underwater due to lack of space.

I do still get a little excited if a fish jumps out or dies of old age so I can replace it.

The hobby was much more fun when I did have to replace fish and try to keep them living. I don't seem to have that problem any more so I may have to get a new hobby, maybe trying to guess the phone numbers of Supermodels.

 

[Opus]

Opus this is true, but there aren't many people as old as me in this hobby. In time, if you live long enough as I did, you reach a point where you want less.
I have just one tank. There was a time when I had 14. I had breeding tanks, experiment tanks, grow out tanks, local creature tanks, invert tanks, sherman tanks etc.

But after a while, after you accomplished all those things, bred everything you wanted to breed, kept all the creatures you wanted to keep, collected all you wanted, much of the thrill is gone.

I can buy a few cars, I have one and my wife has one. I see no reason for more cars but as you said, when I was young, I had to rebuild them, race them, replace them, change the engines etc. . (I may get a Model A Ford so I have a little gluttony left)

I can also travel to all sorts of weird places, but I have been to all the weird places I wanted to go.

My tank is full of fish. I do sometimes go to a lfs and look around but I have to stop myself from buying anything because I just can't fit any more and if I got any more fish I would have to hold them by their tails so that just their head was underwater due to lack of space.

I do still get a little excited if a fish jumps out or dies of old age so I can replace it.

The hobby was much more fun when I did have to replace fish and try to keep them living. I don't seem to have that problem any more so I may have to get a new hobby, maybe trying to guess the phone numbers of Supermodels.

I hear supermodels require at least a $100m in your bank account these days.

Maybe it is a young thing. I'm always one of only a couple of "older" people at the frag swaps. Most seem to be between 20 and 30 and they are buying everything that is expensive. I actually heard one guy walk up to the a booth I was at and said show me your most expensive corals only.

 

[Paul B]

I actually heard one guy walk up to the a booth I was at and said show me your most expensive corals only.

He was a Jiboni who didn't care about corals, he just wanted to try to impress someone.

 

[MarkyMark_]

I've been setting up my tank and have been struggling with the ethics of reef keeping. I might have gotten ahead of myself with this hobby...

 

[Fishingandreefing]

I haven’t gone through what other have said and may have said it. I saw a YouTube video, some local caught a bunch of fish that we keep and cooked them up for food. So, I leave it here.

 

[JCTReefer]

I haven’t gone through what other have said and may have said it. I saw a YouTube video, some local caught a bunch of fish that we keep and cooked them up for food. So, I leave it here.

Oh, you should definitely go back and read through this thread. Lol!!! I remember it well!!! It’s quite entertaining

 

[Ashish Patel]

I haven’t gone through what other have said and may have said it. I saw a YouTube video, some local caught a bunch of fish that we keep and cooked them up for food. So, I leave it here.

Well said!