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I was referring the claim which I bolded in my quote, the claim that most corals are aquacultured
Sorry, I somehow totally missed the bold part, my bad!
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I was referring the claim which I bolded in my quote, the claim that most corals are aquacultured
I don't really have an article, I just use my own eyes. Corals grow, then are fragged. Then grow, fragged. Obviously at some point, they all came from the ocean.Can you point me in a direction that backs up this claim? I have searched and haven't found any recent articles or numbers that can support this.
I disagree with your premise, although I admit that I have no proof. I have definitely seen old fish on dives, I have wrestled with a large spiny lobster under the same rock on repeat years ... I just don't believe that every fish is eaten while still alive. Furthermore people do have a remarkable ability to concern themselves with many different ethical dilemmas, attending to more than one problem at a time.Every fish born in the sea will be eaten by something, while still alive. None of them die peacefully in their sleep.
Fish are barely more intelligent than houseplants, and corals lack a central nervous system altogether.
I can't imagine sparing a moment of feeling guilty about either one. People are generally terrible to other human beings, collectively and individually, and we should probably focus our guilt on that rather than whether a little swimming piece of lunch gets eaten alive by crabs versus living in a box.
I think it may actually be a net negative to waste our moral and ethical energy on things like this that are ethically relatively unimportant. We only have so much energy to go around for righting the wrongs of the world, or even arguing about them. If we spend it fixating on issues without important ethical aspects it creates the illusion we've done something good and gives our conscience permission to take a break. We don't need to fight against real problem X because we've done so much good for imagined problem Y.
One thing I would like to add is the only harm we cause these fish that are captured. Is that they don’t have a chance to reproduce in the wild. This is a small detail, but we gain knowledge from these animals. That is powerful and significant. CheersNo guilt here , try to keep in mind that almost all of the animals we keep will have been pray and died of disease in the wild. Only a tiny percentage of wild fish make it to old age . And what we humans learn from these privileged animals far exceeded the loss from the wild.
I do my best to care for them. So yes they are privileged.
I must disagree with the grown in house or warehouse statement. Most of these corals are coming from the ocean. Some are wild caught and some are farmed, with the farmed pieces either coming from fragging wild pieces or fragging pieces that are already in the farm. There is currently no way for the aquaculture businesses in the US to supply the US demands for coral frags.I don't really have an article, I just use my own eyes. Corals grow, then are fragged. Then grow, fragged. Obviously at some point, they all came from the ocean.
I am certain that there are still "new" corals that are harvested, but I can guarantee you that everything you are buying at a store or online was grown in a house or warehouse.
This doesn't include things like trachys or scolys.
I disagree with you in , SPS being able to supply demand. LPS have a much more difficult time supplying demand. Some LPS can only be removed from the wild . If bands start tomorrow,the sps guys would be the last to fade away years from now . If ever .I must disagree with the grown in house or warehouse statement. Most of these corals are coming from the ocean. Some are wild caught and some are farmed, with the farmed pieces either coming from fragging wild pieces or fragging pieces that are already in the farm. There is currently no way for the aquaculture businesses in the US to supply the US demands for coral frags.
You are correct, in the sense that demand will go down because prices will skyrocket and drive many hobbyist away. Therefore, supply will be able to meet demand. I was just correcting the statement that currently all corals at the lfs are aquacultured except for things like scolys. Currently we cannot meet demand. Unless the DFW area is just not the norm, most of our stores are bringing in most of their corals from indo and Australia when they can get them. If they are really nice pieces they will then frag them and sell them that way, because they can make more money that way. Even the "garage" sellers are doing this. There is no way the local garage guy can have 2 gold torches and then a month later he has 30 of them for sell just from growout.I disagree with you in , SPS being able to supply demand. LPS have a much more difficult time supplying demand. Some LPS can only be removed from the wild . If bands start tomorrow,the sps guys would be the last to fade away years from now . If ever .
I don't really have an article, I just use my own eyes. Corals grow, then are fragged. Then grow, fragged. Obviously at some point, they all came from the ocean.
I am certain that there are still "new" corals that are harvested, but I can guarantee you that everything you are buying at a store or online was grown in a house or warehouse.
This doesn't include things like trachys or scolys
As a new reefer, this knowledge is what I struggle with the most. I would like to belive that most corals are aquacultured but I have yet to find any evidence that can confirm this. Anyone who makes the claim that most corals are aquacultured never can back it up with any hard evidence. However, in my searching, I haven't found any information that accurately captures the effect our hobby has on the environment and/or an estimate of aquacultured vs harvested corals sold in the U. S. or otherwiseYou are correct, in the sense that demand will go down because prices will skyrocket and drive many hobbyist away. Therefore, supply will be able to meet demand. I was just correcting the statement that currently all corals at the lfs are aquacultured except for things like scolys. Currently we cannot meet demand. Unless the DFW area is just not the norm, most of our stores are bringing in most of their corals from indo and Australia when they can get them. If they are really nice pieces they will then frag them and sell them that way, because they can make more money that way. Even the "garage" sellers are doing this. There is no way the local garage guy can have 2 gold torches and then a month later he has 30 of them for sell just from growout.
As a new reefer, this knowledge is what I struggle with the most. I would like to belive that most corals are aquacultured but I have yet to find any evidence that can confirm this. Anyone who makes the claim that most corals are aquacultured never can back it up with any hard evidence. However, in my searching, I haven't found any information that accurately captures the effect our hobby has on the environment and/or an estimate of aquacultured vs harvested corals sold in the U. S. or otherwise
I am not sure why we are even buying so many corals. I have not bought a coral in
many years. You put it in your tank, eventually it gets big and you have no more room for new corals so you never have to buy more.
Fish also, they do die of old age but the majority of our fish should live at least 10 years. Some 20 and clowns 30.
I myself only buy a fish after something dies of old age so I buy very few fish. I have about 30 fish now.
If you are buying multitudes of fish and corals, you are doing something wrong.
I didn't feel bad for that delicious fluke I had for dinner last night either.
Just my opinion of course.
I hear supermodels require at least a $100m in your bank account these days.Opus this is true, but there aren't many people as old as me in this hobby. In time, if you live long enough as I did, you reach a point where you want less.
I have just one tank. There was a time when I had 14. I had breeding tanks, experiment tanks, grow out tanks, local creature tanks, invert tanks, sherman tanks etc.
But after a while, after you accomplished all those things, bred everything you wanted to breed, kept all the creatures you wanted to keep, collected all you wanted, much of the thrill is gone.
I can buy a few cars, I have one and my wife has one. I see no reason for more cars but as you said, when I was young, I had to rebuild them, race them, replace them, change the engines etc. . (I may get a Model A Ford so I have a little gluttony left)
I can also travel to all sorts of weird places, but I have been to all the weird places I wanted to go.
My tank is full of fish. I do sometimes go to a lfs and look around but I have to stop myself from buying anything because I just can't fit any more and if I got any more fish I would have to hold them by their tails so that just their head was underwater due to lack of space.
I do still get a little excited if a fish jumps out or dies of old age so I can replace it.
The hobby was much more fun when I did have to replace fish and try to keep them living. I don't seem to have that problem any more so I may have to get a new hobby, maybe trying to guess the phone numbers of Supermodels.
He was a Jiboni who didn't care about corals, he just wanted to try to impress someone.I actually heard one guy walk up to the a booth I was at and said show me your most expensive corals only.
Oh, you should definitely go back and read through this thread. Lol!!! I remember it well!!! It’s quite entertainingI haven’t gone through what other have said and may have said it. I saw a YouTube video, some local caught a bunch of fish that we keep and cooked them up for food. So, I leave it here.
Well said!I haven’t gone through what other have said and may have said it. I saw a YouTube video, some local caught a bunch of fish that we keep and cooked them up for food. So, I leave it here.