Gurgling Overflow

[Wandering Albatross]

Good afternoon all,

I finally got my replacement cord and was able to start my equipment, and I’ve run into a slight frustration. It’s probably a really dumb issue with a simple fix lol. My overflow, after tweaking it all day, has obtained the first siphon for the main drain, which is great. I was going to leave the emergency drain dry or nearly dry, so when it triggers I’ll know something is up. I’d like it quiet the rest of the time.

Thing is, my pump is down as low as possible, my sump is around running level, but my overflow is full enough to gurgle partially down the emergency drain. It’s makes a ton of noise in comparison, and the valve is fully open. I’m a touch concerned about using the valve on my return to try to stifle the flow further, I just imagine the tubing exploding somehow. Initially the first drain was fast enough that it couldn’t fill enough to siphon, now it’s about an inch too high, and taking out water just drops my sump level.

Thoughts?

 

[Catawba_Valley_Reef]

What type of overflow are you running? Herbie (one full siphon and one emergency drain) or bean animal (full siphon, durso, emergency drain)?

You have valves on your drains? What size piping and how many gph is your return pump?

If herbie and your valve is all the way open and your pump is turned all the way down, then in my opinion you need a smaller pump. If you have valves on your drain lines, then they need to be fully opened…in my experience you should not restrict flow on your drain lines.

 

[UncommonSense]

Initially the first drain was fast enough that it couldn’t fill enough to siphon

This is the key line for me… I’m suspicious of a primary drain clog…

Check the flow rate out of the primary drain pipe into the sump… I expect that it will be a trickle, even with the gate valve all the way open…

 

[Wandering Albatross]

What type of overflow are you running? Herbie (one full siphon and one emergency drain) or bean animal (full siphon, durso, emergency drain)?

You have valves on your drains? What size piping and how many gph is your return pump?

If herbie and your valve is all the way open and your pump is turned all the way down, then in my opinion you need a smaller pump. If you have valves on your drain lines, then they need to be fully opened…in my experience you should not restrict flow on your drain lines.

Herbie was the intent. Pump is currently running at a little over 1000gph, and that's its low side. Since this post, and much more fiddling, It's a touch more stable now. I can get the main drain to siphon properly, but the water level in the overflow is a little low so it still trickles. much more tolerable then the gurgling, but still.

The barbed fitting that came with my return pump is a little loose of a fit though for some reason, which is preventing me from turning up my pump past level 3. Any recommendations on a hose clamp that won't rust out in the water? I have 3 zip ties snug on it for now, but they start to slip at level 3. All hoses are 1". The next larger fitting I have is 1 1/2".

 

[UncommonSense]

Herbie was the intent. Pump is currently running at a little over 1000gph, and that's its low side. Since this post, and much more fiddling, It's a touch more stable now. I can get the main drain to siphon properly, but the water level in the overflow is a little low so it still trickles. much more tolerable then the gurgling, but still.

The barbed fitting that came with my return pump is a little loose of a fit though for some reason, which is preventing me from turning up my pump past level 3. Any recommendations on a hose clamp that won't rust out in the water? I have 3 zip ties snug on it for now, but they start to slip at level 3. All hoses are 1". The next larger fitting I have is 1 1/2".

Ratchet Clamp for Braided Vinyl Tubing

Ratchet clamps are perfect to secure Braided Vinyl tubing to barbed fittings. If you are using silicone or traditional thin wall tubing we highly suggest measuring the outside diameter of the tubing you will be working with to select the correct ratchet clamp. Choose from ratchet clamps for the...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Uncle99]

Herbie was the intent. Pump is currently running at a little over 1000gph, and that's its low side. Since this post, and much more fiddling, It's a touch more stable now. I can get the main drain to siphon properly, but the water level in the overflow is a little low so it still trickles. much more tolerable then the gurgling, but still.

The barbed fitting that came with my return pump is a little loose of a fit though for some reason, which is preventing me from turning up my pump past level 3. Any recommendations on a hose clamp that won't rust out in the water? I have 3 zip ties snug on it for now, but they start to slip at level 3. All hoses are 1". The next larger fitting I have is 1 1/2".

I use plastic hose clamps off Amazon.
Keep fiddling, sounds like good progress.

 

[UncommonSense]

water level in the overflow is a little low so it still trickles. much more tolerable then the gurgling, but still.

Consider adding a straight pipe coupler to the primary, and secondary drain standpipes to raise the water level in the overflow box to your desired height; this may require slight standpipe trimming too!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Ratchet Clamp for Braided Vinyl Tubing

Ratchet clamps are perfect to secure Braided Vinyl tubing to barbed fittings. If you are using silicone or traditional thin wall tubing we highly suggest measuring the outside diameter of the tubing you will be working with to select the correct ratchet clamp. Choose from ratchet clamps for the...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Can these clamps withstand pressure? The pump at level 3 is starting to push the hose, zip ties and all, off. 1 and 2 seem stable with the zip ties. I have very little head pressure, the sump is right under the tank, and has two 90s in that distance. Is the relative weakness of the hose-to-pump seal just something I'll have to try to compensate for with extra clamps? Is there anything else I could do with this in addition to the clamps? I'd be willing to glue the insert to the tube if I could. I don't want the hose blowing off again...maybe worse next time if I'm not right there tuning it.

 

[UncommonSense]

These clamps do get extremely tight if you size them correctly!

I like to use a large set of pliers to clamp them down!

Alternatively, there are various other styles of hose clamps (some more corrosion resistant than others)… also, you can typically unscrew the barbed fitting from a pump’s outlet and adapt to whatever you’d please from the threaded pump outlet!

What size pipe/tubing are the return and drains?

 

[Wandering Albatross]

These clamps do get extremely tight if you size them correctly!

I like to use a large set of pliers to clamp them down!

Alternatively, there are various other styles of hose clamps (some more corrosion resistant than others)… also, you can typically unscrew the barbed fitting from a pump’s outlet and adapt to whatever you’d please from the threaded pump outlet!

What size pipe/tubing are the return and drains?

Everything is 1". I have standard screw down stainless steel hose clamps as well that I'm using in less wet areas, but I figured it'd rust out in nothing flat underwater. Ironically, of all my plumbing, the place I need a super snug fitting clamp because of the poor seal, is the one place I can't use the stainless steel. I don't know how else to improve the seal besides clamps unless I can glue it somehow. The attachment that came with the pump itself is the weak link.

 

[UncommonSense]

Everything is 1". I have standard screw down stainless steel hose clamps as well that I'm using in less wet areas, but I figured it'd rust out in nothing flat underwater. Ironically, of all my plumbing, the place I need a super snug fitting clamp because of the poor seal, is the one place I can't use the stainless steel. I don't know how else to improve the seal besides clamps unless I can glue it somehow. The attachment that came with the pump itself is the weak link.

1” should handle the flow well on the return side, it might be struggling on the drain side a bit at over 1000gph though!

The ratcheting plastic hose clamps do work great; they just don’t shrink very much, so you have to carefully size them for your desired tubing!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Could I in theory screw a union onto the pump end here, and hard plumb a small section with a barbed fitting to connect back to the rest of my plumbing with a slip on the other? That would bypass the 1” barbed adapter on the pump that feels so loose. Would that be possible? Still with clamps after for my peace of mind.

 

[UncommonSense]

What is the make/model of that pump? I’m not instantly recognizing it… (then again; I have been out of the hobby for several years!)

It’s hard to say if the threads on the pump body are standard National Pipe Thread (NPT), or something proprietary (for the threaded collar) from the photo!

A photo of the barbed fitting that comes with the pump would be helpful too!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

What is the make/model of that pump? I’m not instantly recognizing it… (then again; I have been out of the hobby for several years!)

It’s hard to say if the threads on the pump body are standard National Pipe Thread (NPT), or something proprietary (for the threaded collar) from the photo!

A photo of the barbed fitting that comes with the pump would be helpful too!

It’s the Innovative Marine mighty jet XL. I was told it would work fine for my tank size. I’m not sure at this point if the problem is that it’s overpowered or if that one part of the plumbing is just weak. Which is odd cause it’s worked off and on, sometimes too little, sometimes too much.

I just put it back as a placeholder on low, but here’s a pic of the next size up 1-1/2” white barbed fitting next to a leftover piece of a different brand of 1” that was nice and snug, but is supposed to be the same size as the one currently in that’s so loose.

 

[UncommonSense]

Here’s what I’ve found so far:

Innovative Marine XL Mighty Jet DC Return Pump - 2656GPH | Premium Aquatics

Aquarium & Fish Supplies Superstore. Guaranteed Low Prices. Free Shipping for qualified orders. Aquarium supply for your aquarium fish, saltwater aquariums, freshwater aquariums and ponds. The best aquarium lighting, protein skimmers, aquarium chillers, calcium reactors, aquarium pumps for fish...

premiumaquatics.com

Part of the confusion here is with how tubing is sized; traditionally, tubing is sized by outside diameter… the issue comes in when companies try to “help” by listing inside diameter sizing…

That pump is flowing far more than 1” pipe can realistically handle when you turn it up, it is oversized for the application!

given that tubing is smaller in ID than pipe; why not get a short length of tubing sized for your larger hose barb adapter, and a barbed fitting - 1” pipe adapter?

Basically just plumb the tubing section in a larger diameter!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Here’s what I’ve found so far:

Innovative Marine XL Mighty Jet DC Return Pump - 2656GPH | Premium Aquatics

Aquarium & Fish Supplies Superstore. Guaranteed Low Prices. Free Shipping for qualified orders. Aquarium supply for your aquarium fish, saltwater aquariums, freshwater aquariums and ponds. The best aquarium lighting, protein skimmers, aquarium chillers, calcium reactors, aquarium pumps for fish...

premiumaquatics.com

Part of the confusion here is with how tubing is sized; traditionally, tubing is sized by outside diameter… the issue comes in when companies try to “help” by listing inside diameter sizing…

That pump is flowing far more than 1” pipe can realistically handle when you turn it up, it is oversized for the application!

given that tubing is smaller in ID than pipe; why not get a short length of tubing sized for your larger hose barb adapter, and a barbed fitting - 1” pipe adapter?

Basically just plumb the tubing section in a larger diameter!

That sounds like I’d have to redo all my plumbing then. At this point it almost sounds like it’d be easier to get a smaller pump with a 1” fitting. Any recommendations on something suitable for a 150g with a 40 breeder sump that’s 2/3ish full?

One thing I don’t get though is that if 1” is too small for the pump even on low, why would they also have a 3/4” adapter? Seems like they’re trying to confuse the buyer.

 

[UncommonSense]

That sounds like I’d have to redo all my plumbing then. At this point it almost sounds like it’d be easier to get a smaller pump with a 1” fitting. Any recommendations on something suitable for a 150g with a 40 breeder sump that’s 2/3ish full?

One thing I don’t get though is that if 1” is too small for the pump even on low, why would they also have a 3/4” adapter? Seems like they’re trying to confuse the buyer.

In this case, you’d just be redoing the first 1-1.5ft of return plumbing!

The idea being to still run 1” pipe, but use a tubing from pump to pipe which is a bit bigger, for the bigger factory barb fitting!

I agree on the plumbing adapters… this is a common, and very misleading sales tactic! — they want their pumps to work with as many different plumbing configurations as possible, and are not nearly concerned about maximum flow rates!

(Advertised flow rates are MAX flow; 0ft of head, no inlet or outlet restriction… an impeller pump will never flow the numbers on its box in the real world…)

In summary, you can still run that pump, just at minimum flow rates!

Otherwise, I’d look at sourcing a pump in the 1,000-1,400gph max flow range! — pump head loss charts can be helpful here!

An example of head loss charts; they will be unique to every model of pump, but the majority follow a similar curve!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

In this case, you’d just be redoing the first 1-1.5ft of return plumbing!

The idea being to still run 1” pipe, but use a tubing from pump to pipe which is a bit bigger, for the bigger factory barb fitting!

I agree on the plumbing adapters… this is a common, and very misleading sales tactic! — they want their pumps to work with as many different plumbing configurations as possible, and are not nearly concerned about maximum flow rates!

(Advertised flow rates are MAX flow; 0ft of head, no inlet or outlet restriction… an impeller pump will never flow the numbers on its box in the real world…)

In summary, you can still run that pump, just at minimum flow rates!

Otherwise, I’d look at sourcing a pump in the 1,000-1,400gph max flow range! — pump head loss charts can be helpful here!

An example of head loss charts; they will be unique to every model of pump, but the majority follow a similar curve!

Will that extra half inch make that much of a difference if the rest is still 1”, or if the 1-1/2 inch fitting is just as weak of a seal at the 1”? Then would it not be the same problem but after I bought new tubing and redid my entire return? I’m already running the pump in the bottom 2 settings available, which put it at 1000 some-odd gph range.

With the exception of the valves and the immediate couple inches on either end of it right up connected to the bulkhead, it’s all tubing. There is no hard plumbing. All 1” tubing. Sourcing a smaller pump, as frustrating as it is, is starting to sound more like the way to go.

This one will work in a pinch, but I’d rather be safe and not flood my room lol. Shame I spent that money for something that doesn’t seem to fit this system the way I need it to. But hopefully in the future I’ll get my tank room and this can work on a bigger system.

 

[UncommonSense]

Will that extra half inch make that much of a difference if the rest is still 1”, or if the 1-1/2 inch fitting is just as weak of a seal at the 1”? Then would it not be the same problem but after I bought new tubing and redid my entire return? I’m already running the pump in the bottom 2 settings available, which put it at 1000 some-odd gph range.

With the exception of the valves and the immediate couple inches on either end of it right up connected to the bulkhead, it’s all tubing. There is no hard plumbing. All 1” tubing. Sourcing a smaller pump, as frustrating as it is, is starting to sound more like the way to go.

This one will work in a pinch, but I’d rather be safe and not flood my room lol. Shame I spent that money for something that doesn’t seem to fit this system the way I need it to. But hopefully in the future I’ll get my tank room and this can work on a bigger system.

The bigger return tubing would increase flow marginally, just because the current tubing is the narrowest point in the plumbing… but that really isn’t the issue here!

The smaller pump does indeed seem to be the wiser choice here, I’m sad to say…

That pump will be good to have around! You can use it to mix saltwater, as a utility pump, and as a backup return pump! Plus, it’ll work great in a bigger system, or if you plumb multiple systems to one big sump!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Okay, we had bad news, good news, then worse news.

Bad news, replaced the pump.

Good news, the 1" fitting on the new pump was much more snug, and stayed stable for the last 2 days. Tank was reduced to a nice tolerable trickle, stable water level, everything great.

Worse news, for no apparent reason, it just came loose again. Glad I was here to prevent overflow, but now we seem back to the same problem. This pump is rated much lower, and wasn't running at max. It was perfectly fine for days, the tubing never rose like it wanted to pop off, and was snug in place. I'm worried to leave it alone now, especially since I thought we were out of the woods with this new pump. There was no warning, and no change in pressure.

The plastic hose clamps aren't holding it either it seems. I have 2 on as snug as they can go, and they'll grip the hose ok, but I can still twist the hose, clamp and all, on the fitting. I don't know what else to do at this point. I know it has been working, I just can't get the tubing to stay. I'm starting to think I'll have to hard plumb at least the section immediately connected to the pump. The 90 above it is double barbed and neither end has moved.