Hawaii Fish Ban Update

[Rollnwthdatide]

Right. Will those adults live for 40 years - as the wild fish do? IDK - My comment related to the small sizes that some are being shipped - which seem to be more fragile. Additionally, they have no innate immunity to disease - which the collected fish do

No immunity is going to help a wild fish in an enclosed aquarium where the parasite or disease can rapidly overwhelm them just due to the small volume of water they're in.

Captive bred do better in captivity then wild fish do. This goes with sensitive freshwater fish as well.

 

[Rollnwthdatide]

Then one has to ask why we share our opinion without any experience putting weight behind them? To me it perpetuates a false narrative such as color or genetics. I don't think Biota will get mad but I think it may raise an eyebrow. I'm sure they are used to it by now as we both know this is an on going source of contention in our hobby.

Note I said "we" and not "you". This is something we all fall victim to in "my" opinion. Hope your day is well.

Well said.

 

[JayM]

I think you will be rewarded for your patience. I know this will go against the grain - I'm not sure about the Biota tangs - I have no evidence or reason to say it - except for genetics. So - Biota please don't get mad at the post - many people want tank-raised fish - and everyone appreciates your efforts in making that possible

Right. Will those adults live for 40 years - as the wild fish do? IDK - My comment related to the small sizes that some are being shipped - which seem to be more fragile. Additionally, they have no innate immunity to disease - which the collected fish do

I get where immunity may factor in at least a little bit, but unless I misunderstood what you were trying to say, I don't quite get the genetics argument. All of Biota's fish captive bred fish started with wild caught fish and have the same genetics. And depending on how far along they are, all of the Biota bred tangs may come from the wild caught specimens. I have no idea if they're yet breeding captive born fish.

 

[MnFish1]

Technically we dont know that. We need a history in which Biota has yet been a few years. Lifespan based on diet, habitat, owner care and tank provided but in lets say 5-10 years, it can best be determined.

True - all I meant is now - we don't know... Its not a criticism of Biota - I just said 'we don't know'

 

[MnFish1]

No immunity is going to help a wild fish in an enclosed aquarium where the parasite or disease can rapidly overwhelm them just due to the small volume of water they're in.

Captive bred do better in captivity then wild fish do. This goes with sensitive freshwater fish as well.

There are many people on this site that would disagree with that philosophy. I'm not going to fight that battle

 

[MnFish1]

Then one has to ask why we share our opinion without any experience putting weight behind them? To me it perpetuates a false narrative such as color or genetics. I don't think Biota will get mad but I think it may raise an eyebrow. I'm sure they are used to it by now as we both know this is an on going source of contention in our hobby.

Note I said "we" and not "you". This is something we all fall victim to in "my" opinion. Hope your day is well.

yes - I see your point - and again I have no real objection to Biota - and I know that many people want tank raised fish. My opinion is somewhat based on fact - after reading posts where people have added 'non-immune' fish to a tank - and having issues - and also multiple people buying 'baby' tangs an having issues. Note these issues may have more to do with the buyers than the sellers.

 

[Rollnwthdatide]

There are many people on this site that would disagree with that philosophy. I'm not going to fight that battle

Then why do wild caught fish still die from the pest and diseases in the home aquarium? Besides, captive bred do have an innate immune system(your born with), they just don't have the adaptive immune system(acquired immunity due to exposure) that wild fish do. Marine ich rarely kills fish in the wild because of the volume of water they're in compared to an enclosed system where they're exposed to unnaturally levels of it due to the exponentially smaller volume of water they're in compared to natural settings.

 

[MnFish1]

Then why do wild caught fish still die from the pest and diseases in the home aquarium?

You answered your own question below - because the concentration of parasites can rapidly increase to levels much greater than in the wild - However, if you read the studies from Vietnam Ich is more seasonally seen, there have been mass die offs in the wild (due to ich) - and at various times 70+% of certain wild fish are infected.

Besides, captive bred do have an innate immune system(your born with), they just don't have the adaptive immune system(acquired immunity due to exposure) that wild fish do.

Yes - captive bred fish do have slime coats and some other chemical non-specific immunity that they are born with. Wild fish also have some specific immunity even within the egg (from the parents) - here is an interesting article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464824000159

Marine ich rarely kills fish in the wild because of the volume of water they're in compared to an enclosed system where they're exposed to unnaturally levels of it due to the exponentially smaller volume of water they're in compared to natural settings.

Right - however on the other hand - the studies show that die offs due to ich do occur - and the vast likelihood is that a wild fish will at least have some specific immunity to Ich and other parasites.

However, I don't get your point entirely - I am not trying to make an argument that one fish is better than the other. I do think younger/smaller tangs and other types of fish are higher risk for the average tank owner - whether wild or captive bred. It's an observation - as compared to a scientific study. I think it's riskier to keep captive bred fish with non-quarantined wild fish.

 

[MnFish1]

Besides, captive bred do have an innate immune system(your born with), they just don't have the adaptive immune system(acquired immunity due to exposure) that wild fish do.

By the way - I corrected my original post - thanks for pointing out my error - I meant to say tank bred fish may have have less specific immunity than wild caught fish - I would expect that their 'innate' immunity is similar in both groups

 

[Rollnwthdatide]

You answered your own question below - because the concentration of parasites can rapidly increase to levels much greater than in the wild - However, if you read the studies from Vietnam Ich is more seasonally seen, there have been mass die offs in the wild (due to ich) - and at various times 70+% of certain wild fish are infected.

Yes - captive bred fish do have slime coats and some other chemical non-specific immunity that they are born with. Wild fish also have some specific immunity even within the egg (from the parents) - here is an interesting article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464824000159

Right - however on the other hand - the studies show that die offs due to ich do occur - and the vast likelihood is that a wild fish will at least have some specific immunity to Ich and other parasites.

However, I don't get your point entirely - I am not trying to make an argument that one fish is better than the other. I do think younger/smaller tangs and other types of fish are higher risk for the average tank owner - whether wild or captive bred. It's an observation - as compared to a scientific study. I think it's riskier to keep captive bred fish with non-quarantined wild fish.

Please point out where there have been mass die offs of wild fish due to marine ich. I am not aware of that. I have seen where they did a study of Vietnamese ornamental marine species that have been caught for the aquarium trade. Your adaptive immune system can only take you so far. That's why I'm likely to be okay if there's someone with the flu outside but if where if were in an enclosed space it likely wouldn't matter.

 

[MnFish1]

Please point out where there have been mass die offs of wild fish due to marine ich. I am not aware of that. I have seen where they did a study of Vietnamese ornamental marine species that have been caught for the aquarium trade. Your adaptive immune system can only take you so far. That's why I'm likely to be okay if there's someone with the flu outside but if where if were in an enclosed space it likely wouldn't matter.

Will have a couple sources later today am at an appointment

 

[iReefer12]

The two things can exist at the same time..

Captive bred fish are totally fine, they handle stress better than wild caught, have not seen anything to make me believe there immune system is not as good as wild caught once developed.. it’s a positive that this exists.

Also, The ban on sustainably caught fish in Hawaii is total BS, and I hope one day it gets lifted.

 

[areefer01]

True of false.

https://topshelfaquatics.com/collections/saltwater-fish/products/true-hawaiian-yellow-tang-fish

 

[JayM]

True of false.

https://topshelfaquatics.com/collections/saltwater-fish/products/true-hawaiian-yellow-tang-fish

I would say false unless they’re 4-5 years old. They’re definitely not recently wild caught.

 

[areefer01]

I would say false unless they’re 4-5 years old. They’re definitely not recently wild caught.

BTW I do not know the answer but was surprised at the cost.

 

[JayM]

BTW I do not know the answer but was surprised at the cost.

I don’t either, but I did send an email asking if they were from a tank breakdown or something along those lines.

 

[albano]

True or false.

https://topshelfaquatics.com/collections/saltwater-fish/products/true-hawaiian-yellow-tang-fish

Very close to asking price when Hawaii reopens!

 

[Tamberav]

Right. Will those adults live for 40 years - as the wild fish do? IDK - My comment related to the small sizes that some are being shipped - which seem to be more fragile. Additionally, they have no innate minimal specific immunity to disease - which the collected fish do

You can buy larger sizes now, they do sell them medium sized. No immunity, are you sure? Because some people claim to have gotten them with ich in the bag. Maybe maybe not.

Genetics? They are bred from wild stock. They are not F15 designer clowns (at least not yet).

The last ones posted that came in look amazing and are good size.

 

[ryshark]

Very close to asking price when Hawaii reopens!

I doubt it. But I don’t think it will be close to the old days either.

 

[reeftwincities]

I have an entire tank of Biota angels. Yes, they come in small and need a delicate touch. But I'd much rather start with a disease free healthy specimen than something wild caught, stressed by international transport, etc. Anyone thinking wild caught specimens are healthier than Biota must have never reefed in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s....things like regal angelfish used to be rare and difficult to keep. Not so anymore...