Hawaii Fish Ban Update

[reeftwincities]

something not discussed enough in this thread is stocking. It’s nearly impossible to find small enough wild caught specimens to add together. I’ve got a pair of coral beauties, a pair of regals, a pair of marine bettas (not pictured) a pair of venustus (not pictured), a single goldflake and majestic. They’re housed with several wild caught quarantined fish including a Midas Benny, a copperband and also “wild” live rock (again properly qt’d). IMO adding them together at a small size has been critical to their success.

 

[MnFish1]

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/137/1/012094

True of false.

https://topshelfaquatics.com/collections/saltwater-fish/products/true-hawaiian-yellow-tang-fish

It could be true - I sold 3 grown Hawaiian tangs to my LFS when I had to take my tank down some months ago. I don't know what they ended up selling them for - but I assume far more than I paid for them (They were about 5 years in my tank)

 

[MnFish1]

something not discussed enough in this thread is stocking. It’s nearly impossible to find small enough wild caught specimens to add together. I’ve got a pair of coral beauties, a pair of regals, a pair of marine bettas (not pictured) a pair of venustus (not pictured), a single goldflake and majestic. They’re housed with several wild caught quarantined fish including a Midas Benny, a copperband and also “wild” live rock (again properly qt’d). IMO adding them together at a small size has been critical to their success.

I agree with you - and if you think about it - the total surface area of the fish will also limit the number and likely virulence of an ich infection. I.e. a heavily stocked tank will have more issues than a lightly stocked tank with small fish

 

[MnFish1]

You can buy larger sizes now, they do sell them medium sized. No immunity, are you sure? Because some people claim to have gotten them with ich in the bag. Maybe maybe not.

Genetics? They are bred from wild stock. They are not F15 designer clowns (at least not yet).

The last ones posted that came in look amazing and are good size.

Right - I'm not sure how that makes sense (that there is ich in the bag) - And I'm not sure I believe that there was ich in the bag (many things can look like Ich as you know). A wild fish should have more immunity than a tank bred fish - and - (Again this is just my opinion) - if you keep all tank raised fish in a tank without other additions - you shouldn't have issues with disease (unless some is brought in on coral/rock/etc - and if I were adding coral/rock to a tank with these fish, I would have let it be fallow for the 6 week period). There are also many people to put tank-raised fish through the same QT as a wild fish. As to genetics - I do not know exactly how various companies choose which fish to breed. However, I would think the genetic pool is smaller than (for example) schools of hundreds of tangs on a reef - which was my point. if for some reason Fish A and Fish B's offspring have for some genetic reason, a proclivity to get ich - or some immune defect its possible that the offspring might be less healthy.

When one buys a wild fish one can be almost assured that it was at least in the ocean strong with at least some specific immunity to multiple illnesses. That doesn't mean that these fish are necessarily stronger after shipping internationally and potentially being in multiple holding tanks (as others have said). When you consider that few of the fry and young fish survive in the wild - it makes at least some sense (to me) that the ones shipped would be the 'survivors'.

 

[MnFish1]

Please point out where there have been mass die offs of wild fish due to marine ich. I am not aware of that. I have seen where they did a study of Vietnamese ornamental marine species that have been caught for the aquarium trade. Your adaptive immune system can only take you so far. That's why I'm likely to be okay if there's someone with the flu outside but if where if were in an enclosed space it likely wouldn't matter.

This is one of the studies to which I was referring to - and I'm aware there is a similar one to the one you described from South Queensland.

As to the die-off there are few articles that describe it - however, many of these are also linked to other environmental issues that simultaneously happened. you are correct, though, as mentioned before, it is difficult to find evidence on one case or another - because once a fish with ich dies in the wild, it just gets eaten. however - I will find the reference - have had a couple medical issues the last 2 days. Of course - there are many articles describing mass die-offs in and near fish farming)

https://www.researchgate.net/public...wild_fish_from_southeast_Queensland_Australia
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/137/1/012094
This article is interesting in that it looks at the wild/farmed fish relationship. And describes the population dynamics of CI infection in wild fish - which you might find interesting.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64023-2

 

[MnFish1]

I have an entire tank of Biota angels. Yes, they come in small and need a delicate touch. But I'd much rather start with a disease free healthy specimen than something wild caught, stressed by international transport, etc. Anyone thinking wild caught specimens are healthier than Biota must have never reefed in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s....things like regal angelfish used to be rare and difficult to keep. Not so anymore...

This is my point. Many beginning reefers do not have a delicate touch. Additionally, having lived through the 2000 and 2010s - you're correct - due to the difficulty collecting these fish - wait until someone comes up with a tank raised peppermint angel. However - the issues with collecting many fish relate not to innate 'health' - as compared to the difficulty in collection - the depths, etc. BTW - Please keep everyone updated how your tank does (not sarcastic) - because as angels get older there can be problems - can you share a picture of your tank? Thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

This is one of the studies to which I was referring to - and I'm aware there is a similar one to the one you described from South Queensland.

As to the die-off there are few articles that describe it - however, many of these are also linked to other environmental issues that simultaneously happened. you are correct, though, as mentioned before, it is difficult to find evidence on one case or another - because once a fish with ich dies in the wild, it just gets eaten. however - I will find the reference - have had a couple medical issues the last 2 days. Of course - there are many articles describing mass die-offs in and near fish farming)

https://www.researchgate.net/public...wild_fish_from_southeast_Queensland_Australia
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/137/1/012094
This article is interesting in that it looks at the wild/farmed fish relationship. And describes the population dynamics of CI infection in wild fish - which you might find interesting.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64023-2

I'm not sure what this 'bot captcha' is that is showing up - it's an article and I assume a new feature of R2R. ? Maybe someone knows

 

[areefer01]

I have an entire tank of Biota angels. Yes, they come in small and need a delicate touch. But I'd much rather start with a disease free healthy specimen than something wild caught, stressed by international transport, etc. Anyone thinking wild caught specimens are healthier than Biota must have never reefed in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s....things like regal angelfish used to be rare and difficult to keep. Not so anymore...

I still recommend the Regal Angelfish Primer thread over on RC. Great source of information.

 

[MnFish1]

I still recommend the Regal Angelfish Primer thread over on RC. Great source of information.

Can you say 'why'?

 

[areefer01]

Can you say 'why'?

Sure. Factual information from members sharing information on their success and failures.

Edit: "in my opinion"

 

[MnFish1]

Sure. Factual information from members sharing information on their success and failures.

Edit: "in my opinion"

Ok - that was a little sarcasm thrown in - I meant on that site - what is convincing you - and how is it shown to be 'factual'. I mean - you could say that nearly everything we (reefers) keep today was impossible in the 1990's 2000's etc - it doesn't necessarily suggest the reason - or do you disagree? Addendum - since you didn't share (unless I missed it) - the link to the site - its hard to find - which was what prompted my question about that specific topic

 

[areefer01]

Ok - that was a little sarcasm thrown in - I meant on that site - what is convincing you - and how is it shown to be 'factual'. I mean - you could say that nearly everything we (reefers) keep today was impossible in the 1990's 2000's etc - it doesn't necessarily suggest the reason - or do you disagree? Addendum - since you didn't share (unless I missed it) - the link to the site - its hard to find - which was what prompted my question about that specific topic

Sarcasm is fine - I just missed it. I apologize. I guess the quickest answer is that it is archival with the first post going back to 2004 and has 200 or so posts over time. The various posts talk a lot about source location (oceanic and purchase), disease, feeding, display type, how long it was owned, coral snacking, and so forth. In short, it is just members at that time sharing their success and failures to help others who are considering the Regal.

I put it right up there with the Bean Animal Overflow and Rocket Engineers stand thread. Those are wonderful sources of information that stand the test of time. Note: I am not saying the site is better than just stating that there are some amazing archived threads with this being one of them. Then again I still reference advanced aquarist articles so maybe it is just me.

With regards to what is impossible in the 90's compared to today difficult to say. If I was buying a Regal I would buy it directly from Biota but that is just me. Looking at your question a bit wider the hobby has changed due to social media and influencers. There is no patience which I personally believe the reason for a high turn over rate. I will stop here though because I'm derailing the thread and I did not mean to. Again, I apologize.

I did not link the thread but if you are curious here it is.
https://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389107
Hope your day is well.

 

[Tamberav]

Right - I'm not sure how that makes sense (that there is ich in the bag) - And I'm not sure I believe that there was ich in the bag (many things can look like Ich as you know). A wild fish should have more immunity than a tank bred fish - and - (Again this is just my opinion) - if you keep all tank raised fish in a tank without other additions - you shouldn't have issues with disease (unless some is brought in on coral/rock/etc - and if I were adding coral/rock to a tank with these fish, I would have let it be fallow for the 6 week period). There are also many people to put tank-raised fish through the same QT as a wild fish. As to genetics - I do not know exactly how various companies choose which fish to breed. However, I would think the genetic pool is smaller than (for example) schools of hundreds of tangs on a reef - which was my point. if for some reason Fish A and Fish B's offspring have for some genetic reason, a proclivity to get ich - or some immune defect its possible that the offspring might be less healthy.

When one buys a wild fish one can be almost assured that it was at least in the ocean strong with at least some specific immunity to multiple illnesses. That doesn't mean that these fish are necessarily stronger after shipping internationally and potentially being in multiple holding tanks (as others have said). When you consider that few of the fry and young fish survive in the wild - it makes at least some sense (to me) that the ones shipped would be the 'survivors'.

They do recommend their fish get some sort of QT. I think they are pretty clean healthy fish but perhaps not as fully clean/sterile as we would like to believe.

A F1 fish is still just as diverse. They were healthy adults taken from the reef and bred. Same stock. I could see F2 and beyond being not as diverse but anything F1 should be good to go and we are just grasping at hairs.

I think people just want cheap tangs, I am not sure they will be cheap even when Hawaii opens.

 

[Wild1]

From a couple of sources . . . . . . .
The Hawaiian aquarium fishery has been shut down due to a court order requiring an environmental review. The court requirements have been satisfied and the State is moving forward in the permitting process. This is a two part meeting. The first is April 12, where DAR (Division of Aquatic Resources) will present the status of the fishery to the Land Board in a 92 page scientific analysis. Pending the outcome of the meeting Friday, a second meeting will occur in 6-8 weeks.

Nothing has gone according to plan in this process, so we should
not be surprised the opposition has requested the Board to ban the fishery at the April 12 meeting as well.

We need your assistance, now, and in a few months. We urge you to send a simple email to the Land Board.
CLICK HERE to send an email. (Correct email included)

You can elaborate as much as you like, but be clear in your position in the first sentence.

Click here for a Link to the recent findings by DAR that will be presented on Friday that you can review.

Email sent!

 

[JayM]

True of false.

https://topshelfaquatics.com/collections/saltwater-fish/products/true-hawaiian-yellow-tang-fish

True (assuming you trust the person that sold them to TSA):

Good morning.
You are correct we can not get wild caught Yellow Tangs directly from Hawaii any more. The ones we currently have available were from a trade in and a tank break down we did. If there is anything else we can help with please let us know.

Ernesto - Online Customer Support Specialist

Top Shelf Aquatics | Customer Service
407-677-REEF (7333) EXT : 2
7250 Aloma Ave. Suite 102 Winter Park, FL 32792
topshelfaquatics.com
[email protected]

 

[albano]

I think people just want cheap tangs, I am not sure they will be cheap even when Hawaii opens.

IMO, there is no way, that Hawaii fish will ever be anywhere close to the old pricing! The divers and wholesalers have seen what the public will pay, and there’s no going back!

 

[ryshark]

IMO, there is no way, that Hawaii fish will ever be anywhere close to the old pricing! The divers and wholesalers have seen what the public will pay, and there’s no going back!

I’m going to guess $125

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’m going to guess $125

My guess is $195 - $225 and will be blamed on limited supply and inflation/transport costs

 

[albano]

My guess is $195 - $225 and will be blamed on limited supply and inflation/transport costs

I’m sure that they will be priced higher than the captive bred.

 

[Zekkal]

IMO, there is no way, that Hawaii fish will ever be anywhere close to the old pricing! The divers and wholesalers have seen what the public will pay, and there’s no going back!

I started the hobby after the ban, and am holding out for wild Hawaiians, partially because Biota's prices are too high (IMO.)
Similar reason why I didn't get my purples from Biota, those prices were crazy.

Sure they've seen what some people will pay with a captive only source, but I think there's more people waiting for lower prices than we think. Hopefully competition will bring prices down, on both sides..

I've waited this long, might as well keep waiting lol. I have faith that prices will come down if/when Hawaii finally opens the gates