Bouncingsoul39
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This is what we call a "slippery slope" logical fallacy and is not a valid argument.
Hawaii Supreme Court Ruling Halts Aquarium Fishery
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I will add some data when I get more time later today.
i'm still fairly confused by this, does this mean we pretty much won't be able to get yellow tangs anymore? Is it safe to assume most LFS source their fish from Hawaii?
Blue Carbon Reefing
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I have two yellow tangs for sale for $3495 each if you want one please let me know... just kidding.. It is definitely good to know we have successfully bred these fish in captivity. It was great to see at MACNA so many newly captive bred fish coming out. It would be a sad day if we cannot purchase these fish anymore as they are truly iconic to saltwater fish keeping. I am sure like the pacific blue tang they being a lot harder to find but they will still be available, maybe at a higher cost.
Bouncingsoul39
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I'm referring specifically to the comment you made "we'll now be getting cyanide caught Indonesian fish." That statement is a slippery slope logical fallacy and not true. I know there is plenty of data on the sustainability of the Hawaii commercial fisheries for the hobby. Really just a waste of time to debate that here IMO.I will add some data when I get more time later today.
For me, the question is not whether it's a sustainable practice at all. The question is whether or not it is ethical to remove fish from the reef in order to entertain little Timmy for months or maybe a year or two before it dies. What people do not consider in this argument for or against is what the percentage rate of survival of the animal is after collection.
My anecdotal observation after working 10+ years in the aquarium industry is that a large percentage of them will die shortly after collection at some point in the chain of custody. I don't like that.
This hurts bad.
This will affect most yellow tangs, lots of other tangs, dwarf golden eel, lots of wrasses and several other fish.
Why is this bad it put pressure on fish from other areas and we will see fish prices rocket.
Survival rates from Hawaii due to closeness are higher. Also the Caribbean fish are going to come under-fire soon due tot he lion fish hurting fish populations.
Problem is all this on Hawaii is bull ...
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/Arti...or-Increase-in-Aquarium-Fish-Populations.aspx
As far as this putting pressure on captive breeding you need fish to captive breed. We are way to early to have any sustainable breeding of tangs we are way off on that.
This wont happen right now I do not think anyway but it is coming soon.
As a hobby we have no voice and no leader.
Greed is killing the hobby as it is.
These people are fighting us use the forums against us. They compile all the bad post to show how incompetent our hobby is. That is the real sad part.
This will affect most yellow tangs, lots of other tangs, dwarf golden eel, lots of wrasses and several other fish.
Why is this bad it put pressure on fish from other areas and we will see fish prices rocket.
Survival rates from Hawaii due to closeness are higher. Also the Caribbean fish are going to come under-fire soon due tot he lion fish hurting fish populations.
Problem is all this on Hawaii is bull ...
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/Arti...or-Increase-in-Aquarium-Fish-Populations.aspx
As far as this putting pressure on captive breeding you need fish to captive breed. We are way to early to have any sustainable breeding of tangs we are way off on that.
This wont happen right now I do not think anyway but it is coming soon.
As a hobby we have no voice and no leader.
Greed is killing the hobby as it is.
These people are fighting us use the forums against us. They compile all the bad post to show how incompetent our hobby is. That is the real sad part.
It is a valid statement.
Fish from Hawaii have abetter survival rate because of how close it is the the states.
If Hawaii does shut down this will cause prices to sky rocket and people will turn to cyanide because they can catch more fish much faster.
The ruling will likely be challenged and a compromise made. For the short term, prices for wild caught specimens will likely increase, as will demand for captive bred individuals. With increased demand, there may be an increase in funding/interest in regard to captive breeding efforts for ornamental marine fish. As stated in the video mentioned by @leahfiish , the largest hurdle to overcome in regard to captive bred fish is the price discrepancy between wild harvested and aquaculture specimens.
This ruling will likely not last, but the lapse in supply may provide the opportunity for some of the cultured fish to establish their niche in the hobby.
I think the part that bothers me the most about this is that the new requirements do nothing to address the true cause of the oceans decline. They can ban aquarium collection from across the globe but it will barely make a dent compared to fishing for food/pollution/development for tourism/etc.
I'm all for smart regulations, and restricting collection when problems arise but the Hawaiian aquarium fish populations have been increasing not decreasing.
I'm all for smart regulations, and restricting collection when problems arise but the Hawaiian aquarium fish populations have been increasing not decreasing.
I do not think it will last but it will eventually come true.. The hobby needs a leader and a voice otherwise people like snorkel Bob are going to win eventually. Each time it gets closer to passing and actually did pass this last time except the Governor vetoed it. He wont be able to keep doing it.
I think Caribbean fish ban is also coming and will actually be needed. The lion fish are really reducing populations of fish.
You know why tang population is increasing?
pollution! there is more food for them.
This is likely to prevent sudden buyout by other parties. They and other vendors likely still have a decent stock on hand and are awaiting to adjust pricing accordingly.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
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I have mixed feelings about this ruling. Part of me considers it unnecessary government overreach. I don't like the government making decisions that don't appear to line up with reality.
A different side of me feels like this may serve a good purpose. I spend a lot of time in the fish disease section of this forum. It makes me upset some days where I see people get these beautiful fish and then dump them into aquariums hoping for the best. Maybe if the fish costs more, people will stop buying baby yellow tangs for their 40g aquariums. Maybe they will take proper QT procedures more seriously in the hopes of better long term survival. If not the QT route, maybe they will actually follow all of @Paul B 's advice in how to run a proper immune system.
If a shock to the supply chain help create more informed hobbyists, I can't help but see a good side to it. So, my feelings are very mixed.
Well that and the no catch zones that were set up years ago. Fish populations in the no catch zones are much larger and they filter out into the catch-able zones.
What about shipping them worldwide from Hawaii? What's there survival rate then?
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Good points, and I agree with you. A lot of those points are brought up on Austin's presentation, and he refers a lot to the "cut flower" mentality for fish and how that is unacceptable. I feel like that is just beginning to catch on as we are finally starting to understand that a lot of these fish, if properly cared for, can live for decades. But I think banning collection from Hawaii sends the wrong message and it puts a bad light on the aquarium hobby. And with the way the oceans are going, home reefs might be the only ones we have left.
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