Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

[ruegaroo]

I recently got a captive bred juvenile yellow tang in May and run a carbon reactor. As the tang started to gain more of it’s yellow color I noticed it started to develop HLLE. It hasn’t gotten too much worse over these past few months but it’s been a concern of mine. I just took the reactor offline tonight. I’d like to see if that helps it heal as the tang grows out a bit more.

 

[salty joe]

Anybody know what kind of carbon ROX is-other than pellet?

 

[SixtyFeetUnder]

@Jay Hemdal Excellent article Jay; thank you for your work. Question - I’m not exactly familiar with what specifically “lignite” Carbon is. I run rox Carbon in a low flow fluidized reactor and have not had any problems but will monitor and experiment with discontinuing carbon for a period if I do. That said is there a difference between “rox” and the “lignite” studied here?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Over the years, I have not heard any reports of ROX being an issue, quite the opposite- most people who disagree with this paper are using similar pellets, in a reef system with a skimmer, and that just isn’t an issue. Lignite carbon is soft and dusty, derived from coal. Coconut carbon is another product, that needs to be tested....I don’t trust any soft dusty carbon.
Jay

 

[stanleo]

I have a yellow tang that developed HLLE, I believe after I got him. He otherwise looked very healthy and acted very healthy. He is plump and bright yellow with bright eyes. Anyway, I did my research and found the 3 causes that are most believed to cause this condition, stray electrical current, activated carbon use and poor diet. I assumed that because he had good fins and normal body appearance that diet wasn't my issue. So I tested the water and had a stray voltage problem. I replaced the heater and an old pump I was using and started using a grounding probe. After finding voltage to be a problem I looked no further and for a year now since this happened the decease has not progressed and the fish looks much better and the fish has grown well, however the lesions are still visible.

After reading this wonderful article I am again wondering if my use of carbon can be a factor as well. But I am hesitant to stop using it because of the reported benefits of running carbon on a reef tank. I do change it out every month and rinse it in running tap water until the water coming out of it is clear. I have it in a bag at the base of my intake chamber of the sump under filter pads so it doesn't get tumbled around and broken up. @Jay Hemdal, should I stop using carbon all together?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Stray voltage is a red herring. I ran a rule out test at my facility prior to the carbon study and there was no correlation. Vitamin C has also been ruled out. Overall good diet is important for many reasons. The best advice I have is to avoid using soft dusty carbon, especially in reactors. Use pelleted carbon and a good protein skimmer to remove the POC.
Jay

 

[HuduVudu]

Carbon use is still widespread and the hobby has grown dramatically in the many years since these studies were conducted, yet cases are very sporadically reported now, without doubt food and feeding has had some improvements but there are still questions over pellets and flake and long term health. This improvement in food/ feeding could potentially imply some of the reduction in erosive illnesses but again is highly variable, nearly as variable as the thousands of factors that affect our systems..

You missed a very important fact about how the hobby has shifted. The Berlin method with protien skimmers has become VERY widespread in the hobby since this paper was produced.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Nice Article. Question - You alluded to it a little in the article - but - what do you think the 'reason' that carbon use is associated with this problem? A toxin from Lignite carbon as compared to pelleted? Does the Lignite carbon remove an element or vitamin, etc more efficiently than pelleted carbon? What still remains unclear to me is 'why' - some people have used carbon for years with no problem and others seem to have this difficulty - to me this suggests an association between carbon and HLLE - but perhaps not the actual underlying 'reason'

Sorry, I missed your post. Two research papers show that lignite carbon causes HLLE, the reason was not proven. Dr Stampers team feels the carbon removes organics that makes the heavy metals in the water more toxic. I say, what heavy metals? If you reduce the dust, you can more easily use carbon....so that’s where I’m at right now.
Jay

 

[stanleo]

Stray voltage is a red herring. I ran a rule out test at my facility prior to the carbon study and there was no correlation. Vitamin C has also been ruled out. Overall good diet is important for many reasons. The best advice I have is to avoid using soft dusty carbon, especially in reactors. Use pelleted carbon and a good protein skimmer to remove the POC.
Jay

Interesting. I do use pelleted carbon and I run my protein skimmer continuously and it seems to work quite well, I am very happy with it. If the decease isn't causing the lesions to get worse and the fish otherwise is in great shape, does that mean the decease is cured? If it is or even if there is such a thing, will the lesions go away? The article seems to suggest that they will not.

 

[Atomicus]

A substance can do multiple things. Vitamin d was for calcium and bones prior to last decade. Now 500 plus papers show it’s absolute importance in immunity and autoimmunity. Autoimmunity figures prominently in many many dermatological conditions in humans and captive primates. Skin lesions / erosions psoriasis eczema etc now known to be affected. Shallow water fish get sunlight conversion more rapidly. Carbon in fluid can find way into living systems and cause changes parallel coal miners lung anthracosis to functional deficiencies. Many larger molecules critical in living systems for containing controlling single element. What is hemoglobin but a carrier or resonating frame for iron ? What are chlorophylls but a carrier and resonating frame for magnesium? Such other globins also for cobalt manganese and vanadium now..... hmmm. Ocean has almost all elements and icp testing for a reason - may have effects no? As a pathologist we only track 18 so far in human medicine - but billionths of gold or silver may have unknown actions. Which ones wouldn’t carbon effect!

 

[MnFish1]

A substance can do multiple things. Vitamin d was for calcium and bones prior to last decade. Now 500 plus papers show it’s absolute importance in immunity and autoimmunity. Autoimmunity figures prominently in many many dermatological conditions in humans and captive primates. Skin lesions / erosions psoriasis eczema etc now known to be affected. Shallow water fish get sunlight conversion more rapidly. Carbon in fluid can find way into living systems and cause changes parallel coal miners lung anthracosis to functional deficiencies. Many larger molecules critical in living systems for containing controlling single element. What is hemoglobin but a carrier or resonating frame for iron ? What are chlorophylls but a carrier and resonating frame for magnesium? Such other globins also for cobalt manganese and vanadium now..... hmmm. Ocean has almost all elements and icp testing for a reason - may have effects no? As a pathologist we only track 18 so far in human medicine - but billionths of gold or silver may have unknown actions. Which ones wouldn’t carbon effect!

I might suggest that Hemoglobin carries 'Oxygen'

 

[Atomicus]

I might suggest that Hemoglobin carries 'Oxygen'

Yes of course pardon my English - the implication on forms or constructs in molecular evolution of carriers of higher elements as they relate to depletion from carbon use - is that structurally the molecule serves its well known end function of carrying oxygen exactly Because it carries Iron. In evolution functions arise from adaptation of previous functions - there is no plan to carry oxygen as such - the molecule adapted to hold or trap an otherwise toxic element species - same as the other examples given. So the question thus is as the author implied or postulated - what other elements are bound to higher organic molecules of unknown ( due to extreme low concentrations) but critical functions that are removed or affected by carbon

 

[Gribbliest]

I certainly found when I removed my lignite carbon my Fishes that were suffering all healed up pretty well. My Purple Tang is scarred badly, but happy enough, just UUUUUUGLY :D

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I thought I would chime in on this a well as although it is not a controlled study in any way, it absolutely made up my mind on what causes the HLLE in the hippo tang.

I had all of my tangs in a rubbermaid tote going through copper treatment. Treatment was over so I wanted to run carbon to absorb the copper. I thought... well I will just use the cheap stuff I had leftover. Put it in a filter sock, gave it a rinse, and clipped i tot the side of the tote AND THEN PUT THE OUTLET OF MY CANISTER FILTER into it. Big mistake... it was late, I was not thinking clearly.

Ran all night and all day, came home from work and the water was BLACK and I mean..I can not even see the fish black! The rolling carbon created a ton of fines. Packed the filter with fresh filter floss and 5 hours later it was clear. All the fish were fine but the hippo.. he developed horrible HLLE. It seemed at the time that all of those little pits on his head were "clogged" and they just got infected. I thought at the time "oh THAT is why carbon causes this". He never fully recovered. He is still alive (I call him scarface now) and pretty much apologize to him every time I see him.

So to me, there is REALLY something to the fines causing the problem.

 

[Miller535]

Saying that HLLE is caused by a singular source like carbon, is like saying because one thing causes cancer then it's the only thing that causes cancer. That's just not how things work.

 

[salty joe]

It's like saying smoking cigarettes causes cancer.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

It's like saying smoking cigarettes causes cancer.

That is a good analogy. An even better one would be: "Smoking can cause lung cancer, and that has been proven through studies. Some people say stray electrical current can also, but no studies have been done."

Jay

 

[pfoxgrover]

Thanks Jay for sharing this information!
I used to by lignite carbon from BRS in 5 gallon buckets. They even have a nice video saying how economical it is. In more recent times I have only sparingly been using ROX carbon when I think I need it. I have two tangs with HLLE.
Another potential cause I have heard of, is prolonged exposure to copper based medication. Since Tangs are prone to Ich I bet a lot of them are seeing a lot of copper along there way to us.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

So - back in the day, I also suspected copper. However, in retrospect, carbon is used at the end of many copper treatments, so that can obscure possible causation. That said, the other researcher who studied carbon and HLLE feels that carbon use absorbs organics that normally bind heavy metals. And he feels it is this unbonded heavy metal that causes the HLLE. I don’t agree because in my study, the tank’s were new and didn’t have heavy metal contamination....

Jay

 

[salty joe]

Is ROX carbon considered to cause HLLE?