Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Is ROX carbon considered to cause HLLE?

I don’t have any reports about problems with that, so I’m pretty confident that it is ok to use.
Jay

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I use ROX.. and have 9 tangs... not a single one has HLLE. None of my tangs smoke cigarettes either.. so not sure how that factors in.

 

[craigbuss]

I use ROX.. and have 9 tangs... not a single one has HLLE. None of my tangs smoke cigarettes either.. so not sure how that factors in.

how large is your tank? I wonder if it is possible for the tank size compared to the way carbon is used (media reactor/mesh bag) to play a factor. I have a 120gal tank and use the BRS dual reactor for carbon and GFO.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

About 800 total gallons. I am convinced it is the carbon dust that causes the problem. Rox is as dust free as you can possibly get.

Think about it.. carbon doesn't add anything to the water, it simply takes things away and it is not like carbon zaps the tank of essentially nutrients or minerals.

 

[friendlyguy]

Thanks for the article! I`ve read it with great interest as i have a zebrasoma that suffers from HLLE.
I bought the fish like that, the LFS told me its scars from a fight with another fish during transport and that they will heal "just fine"... Much later(a couple of months) I began to wonder why its wounds don't heal at all and I think I even observed the condition getting worse. :eek: I did read about HLLE but only saw an (very) old paper where the use of active carbon was "suspected" as well as an diet. Since I feed my fish frozen food twice every day and nothing else. I thought that it might be the non exiting variance in food and began to add vitamines, tried to offer fresh food as well and added garlic to the food. (soaking krill / mysis / artemia in it)
I watched the fish closely and thought at first that it got better, "maybe" the scars did heal a bit... but not that much.
Now... I do also use activated carbon since day 1 of my tank. I do wash it thoroughly before i use it and I only buy it from "high quality" brands like sangokai or nyos. However, as I just learned its probably a lot of it and its used in a high flow filter. (nyos torq) I use roughly 500g on a 350 liter system. Exchanging it maybe every 2 months or so.
I think the next step is to remove it entirely from my filtration and see if that helps.

EDIT: I believe I even read an article where it was stated that the only "proven" cause for HLLE is captivity.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for the article! I`ve read it with great interest as i have a zebrasoma that suffers from HLLE.
I bought the fish like that, the LFS told me its scars from a fight with another fish during transport and that they will heal "just fine"... Much later(a couple of months) I began to wonder why its wounds don't heal at all and I think I even observed the condition getting worse. :eek: I did read about HLLE but only saw an (very) old paper where the use of active carbon was "suspected" as well as an diet. Since I feed my fish frozen food twice every day and nothing else. I thought that it might be the non exiting variance in food and began to add vitamines, tried to offer fresh food as well and added garlic to the food. (soaking krill / mysis / artemia in it)
I watched the fish closely and thought at first that it got better, "maybe" the scars did heal a bit... but not that much.
Now... I do also use activated carbon since day 1 of my tank. I do wash it thoroughly before i use it and I only buy it from "high quality" brands like sangokai or nyos. However, as I just learned its probably a lot of it and its used in a high flow filter. (nyos torq) I use roughly 500g on a 350 liter system. Exchanging it maybe every 2 months or so.
I think the next step is to remove it entirely from my filtration and see if that helps.

EDIT: I believe I even read an article where it was stated that the only "proven" cause for HLLE is captivity.

Removing carbon after HLLE has begun does not always resolve the issue. It seems that once the lesions become severe enough, they are mostly permanent. Good luck though!

Jay

 

[brwaldbaum]

Is it a coincidence that the family of fishes most susceptible to HLLE is also the most susceptible to protozoan parasitism?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Is it a coincidence that the family of fishes most susceptible to HLLE is also the most susceptible to protozoan parasitism?

There is definitely a correlation between HLLE and skin/scale type. There are some species though, that are very susceptible to protozoan infections (anthias and boxfish for example) that don't develop HLLE.

Jay

 

[brwaldbaum]

There is definitely a correlation between HLLE and skin/scale type. There are some species though, that are very susceptible to protozoan infections (anthias and boxfish for example) that don't develop HLLE.

Jay

Have you ever run carbon in series with a diatom or micron cartridge filter? If so, did the fish still develop HLLE?

 

[capted]

This guy recovered pretty good after a bad case of It but you can see the permanent scares around the eyes. I do run carbon (seachem matrix) Didn't get better or worse when I removed the carbon. I did notice my nitrates were above 80 when he started to get it bad. Maybe stress related?

 

[salty joe]

Would you agree that the hippo is by far the most susceptible to HLLE?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Have you ever run carbon in series with a diatom or micron cartridge filter? If so, did the fish still develop HLLE?

No, I never studied that. In my study, I used a micron air filter in order to rule out airborne particulates that might be entering the aquarium through that route (carbon dust versus "normal" dust). Anecdotally though, many people see that tanks with some means to actively reduce particulate organic carbon (POC) show fewer issues with carbon use - the big POC remover is a good protein skimmer running very wet. An additional way that POC is removed from systems is through uptake by filter feeding inverts.

Jay

 

[capted]

That is a thought. From my own experience either stray voltage or (dirty) water has a big affect. Not to start the voltage issue.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

That is a thought. From my own experience either stray voltage or (dirty) water has a big affect. Not to start the voltage issue.

Ah, I've ruled out stray voltage as a cause many years ago. I'm not sure why it keeps coming up, but there is no causation. I tried, but never was able to induce it (pardon the pun).

Jay

 

[capted]

Ah, I've ruled out stray voltage as a cause many years ago. I'm not sure why it keeps coming up, but there is no causation. I tried, but never was able to induce it (pardon the pun).

Jay

Good to know that. I had a small voltage reading that I didn't know for how long so I wasn't sure about that

 

[pfoxgrover]

So what is the best alternative to running activated carbon with tangs?
I did some looking into ozone and just about everybody recommends that you run both the air and water leaving the reactor/skimmer through carbon afterwards so what would the point be there?
I have rox on hand and switched to it a few years ago. Two of my tangs look really bad and in my new tank I will have 8 tangs and a lot of water to look through to see them.

 

[pfoxgrover]

@Jay Hemdal Can you comment on my last post? I am interested in what you think good tang safe alternatives to activated carbon for the purpose of water clarity?

 

[capted]

I use seachem matrix carbon with no issues. I only use a cup for my 125gallon though. I thoroughly rinse it first also.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Have you ever run carbon in series with a diatom or micron cartridge filter? If so, did the fish still develop HLLE?

Sorry - I missed your post. I have NOT tried using a diatom filter to remove carbon dust, but anecdotally, tanks that have a good way to remove POC (particulate Organic Carbon) also seem to have fewer issues with HLLE. Two POC export mechanisms that *seem* to help are protein skimmers running really wet, and then, reef tanks that have corals and other inverts that tend to remove POC. In both these cases, HLLE seems to be less of an issue, regardless of carbon use (unless the carbon is dusty/soft or used in a reactor). Well rinsed pelleted carbon, used sparingly in a good reef system isn't much of a problem.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal Can you comment on my last post? I am interested in what you think good tang safe alternatives to activated carbon for the purpose of water clarity?

Sorry, missed your post, please see my post above for my opinion.

Jay