Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

OP
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,599
Reaction score
25,458
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Is ROX carbon considered to cause HLLE?
I don’t have any reports about problems with that, so I’m pretty confident that it is ok to use.
Jay
 

craigbuss

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 6, 2020
Messages
86
Reaction score
87
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I use ROX.. and have 9 tangs... not a single one has HLLE. None of my tangs smoke cigarettes either.. so not sure how that factors in.
how large is your tank? I wonder if it is possible for the tank size compared to the way carbon is used (media reactor/mesh bag) to play a factor. I have a 120gal tank and use the BRS dual reactor for carbon and GFO.
 

pdxmonkeyboy

Sticks!! Give me the sticks!
View Badges
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
2,677
Reaction score
4,610
Location
Hockinson, WA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
About 800 total gallons. I am convinced it is the carbon dust that causes the problem. Rox is as dust free as you can possibly get.

Think about it.. carbon doesn't add anything to the water, it simply takes things away and it is not like carbon zaps the tank of essentially nutrients or minerals.
 

friendlyguy

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
124
Reaction score
113
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thanks for the article! I`ve read it with great interest as i have a zebrasoma that suffers from HLLE.
I bought the fish like that, the LFS told me its scars from a fight with another fish during transport and that they will heal "just fine"... Much later(a couple of months) I began to wonder why its wounds don't heal at all and I think I even observed the condition getting worse. :eek: I did read about HLLE but only saw an (very) old paper where the use of active carbon was "suspected" as well as an diet. Since I feed my fish frozen food twice every day and nothing else. I thought that it might be the non exiting variance in food and began to add vitamines, tried to offer fresh food as well and added garlic to the food. (soaking krill / mysis / artemia in it)
I watched the fish closely and thought at first that it got better, "maybe" the scars did heal a bit... but not that much.
Now... I do also use activated carbon since day 1 of my tank. I do wash it thoroughly before i use it and I only buy it from "high quality" brands like sangokai or nyos. However, as I just learned its probably a lot of it and its used in a high flow filter. (nyos torq) I use roughly 500g on a 350 liter system. Exchanging it maybe every 2 months or so.
I think the next step is to remove it entirely from my filtration and see if that helps.

EDIT: I believe I even read an article where it was stated that the only "proven" cause for HLLE is captivity.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,599
Reaction score
25,458
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thanks for the article! I`ve read it with great interest as i have a zebrasoma that suffers from HLLE.
I bought the fish like that, the LFS told me its scars from a fight with another fish during transport and that they will heal "just fine"... Much later(a couple of months) I began to wonder why its wounds don't heal at all and I think I even observed the condition getting worse. :eek: I did read about HLLE but only saw an (very) old paper where the use of active carbon was "suspected" as well as an diet. Since I feed my fish frozen food twice every day and nothing else. I thought that it might be the non exiting variance in food and began to add vitamines, tried to offer fresh food as well and added garlic to the food. (soaking krill / mysis / artemia in it)
I watched the fish closely and thought at first that it got better, "maybe" the scars did heal a bit... but not that much.
Now... I do also use activated carbon since day 1 of my tank. I do wash it thoroughly before i use it and I only buy it from "high quality" brands like sangokai or nyos. However, as I just learned its probably a lot of it and its used in a high flow filter. (nyos torq) I use roughly 500g on a 350 liter system. Exchanging it maybe every 2 months or so.
I think the next step is to remove it entirely from my filtration and see if that helps.

EDIT: I believe I even read an article where it was stated that the only "proven" cause for HLLE is captivity.

Removing carbon after HLLE has begun does not always resolve the issue. It seems that once the lesions become severe enough, they are mostly permanent. Good luck though!

Jay
 

brwaldbaum

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
171
Reaction score
100
Location
Long Island
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Is it a coincidence that the family of fishes most susceptible to HLLE is also the most susceptible to protozoan parasitism?
 
OP
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,599
Reaction score
25,458
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Is it a coincidence that the family of fishes most susceptible to HLLE is also the most susceptible to protozoan parasitism?
There is definitely a correlation between HLLE and skin/scale type. There are some species though, that are very susceptible to protozoan infections (anthias and boxfish for example) that don't develop HLLE.

Jay
 

brwaldbaum

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
171
Reaction score
100
Location
Long Island
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
There is definitely a correlation between HLLE and skin/scale type. There are some species though, that are very susceptible to protozoan infections (anthias and boxfish for example) that don't develop HLLE.

Jay
Have you ever run carbon in series with a diatom or micron cartridge filter? If so, did the fish still develop HLLE?
 

capted

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
164
Reaction score
130
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
This guy recovered pretty good after a bad case of It but you can see the permanent scares around the eyes. I do run carbon (seachem matrix) Didn't get better or worse when I removed the carbon. I did notice my nitrates were above 80 when he started to get it bad. Maybe stress related?
 

Attachments

  • 20210507_232326.jpg
    20210507_232326.jpg
    227.6 KB · Views: 50
OP
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,599
Reaction score
25,458
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Have you ever run carbon in series with a diatom or micron cartridge filter? If so, did the fish still develop HLLE?
No, I never studied that. In my study, I used a micron air filter in order to rule out airborne particulates that might be entering the aquarium through that route (carbon dust versus "normal" dust). Anecdotally though, many people see that tanks with some means to actively reduce particulate organic carbon (POC) show fewer issues with carbon use - the big POC remover is a good protein skimmer running very wet. An additional way that POC is removed from systems is through uptake by filter feeding inverts.

Jay
 

capted

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
164
Reaction score
130
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That is a thought. From my own experience either stray voltage or (dirty) water has a big affect. Not to start the voltage issue.
 
OP
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,599
Reaction score
25,458
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That is a thought. From my own experience either stray voltage or (dirty) water has a big affect. Not to start the voltage issue.
Ah, I've ruled out stray voltage as a cause many years ago. I'm not sure why it keeps coming up, but there is no causation. I tried, but never was able to induce it (pardon the pun).

Jay
 

capted

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
164
Reaction score
130
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Ah, I've ruled out stray voltage as a cause many years ago. I'm not sure why it keeps coming up, but there is no causation. I tried, but never was able to induce it (pardon the pun).

Jay
Good to know that. I had a small voltage reading that I didn't know for how long so I wasn't sure about that
 

pfoxgrover

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Messages
241
Reaction score
135
Location
Lancaster, CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So what is the best alternative to running activated carbon with tangs?
I did some looking into ozone and just about everybody recommends that you run both the air and water leaving the reactor/skimmer through carbon afterwards so what would the point be there?
I have rox on hand and switched to it a few years ago. Two of my tangs look really bad and in my new tank I will have 8 tangs and a lot of water to look through to see them.
 

capted

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
164
Reaction score
130
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I use seachem matrix carbon with no issues. I only use a cup for my 125gallon though. I thoroughly rinse it first also.
 
OP
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,599
Reaction score
25,458
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Have you ever run carbon in series with a diatom or micron cartridge filter? If so, did the fish still develop HLLE?
Sorry - I missed your post. I have NOT tried using a diatom filter to remove carbon dust, but anecdotally, tanks that have a good way to remove POC (particulate Organic Carbon) also seem to have fewer issues with HLLE. Two POC export mechanisms that *seem* to help are protein skimmers running really wet, and then, reef tanks that have corals and other inverts that tend to remove POC. In both these cases, HLLE seems to be less of an issue, regardless of carbon use (unless the carbon is dusty/soft or used in a reactor). Well rinsed pelleted carbon, used sparingly in a good reef system isn't much of a problem.

Jay
 
OP
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,599
Reaction score
25,458
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
@Jay Hemdal Can you comment on my last post? I am interested in what you think good tang safe alternatives to activated carbon for the purpose of water clarity?
Sorry, missed your post, please see my post above for my opinion.

Jay
 

Fusion in reefing: How do you feel about grafted corals?

  • I strongly prefer grafted corals and I seek them out to put in my tank.

    Votes: 3 3.6%
  • I find grafted corals appealing and would be open to having them in my tank.

    Votes: 47 56.0%
  • I am indifferent about grafted corals and am not enthusiastic about having them in my tank.

    Votes: 24 28.6%
  • I have reservations about grafted corals and would generally avoid having them in my tank.

    Votes: 7 8.3%
  • I have a negative perception and would avoid having grafted corals in my tank.

    Votes: 3 3.6%
Back
Top