Heavy metals and corals

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How can we visualize 32ppb of copper? 32 marbles in a 100 gallon? Or 1000 gallon?

lol

Well, if it was a billion ppb it would be a block of solid copper metal. :)

Volume of 1 marble is about 1 cm3 = 1 mL.

Volume of 1 gallon is 3,785 mL
Volume of 1,000 gal is 3,785,000 mL

So 1 marble in 1000 gallons is about 1/3,785,000 = 264 ppb

So 1 marble in 8,000 gallons.

 

[bios]

Hi Paul
Pleasure to ear you again
Sometimes re ad your post Like very much
You are extraordinary
Probably also in a space shutle tour tank survive

 

[Paul B]

Hello Bios. Nice to hear from you. I am not sure what that last sentence you wrote means but I probably agree with it. :rolleyes:
I am just having fun with Randy but I know he is the King of chemistry. I am just an old, bald diver who has seen a lot but is waterlogged. :)

 

[bios]

Agree with you
My fluent english....ahah
Think that what you do make me reflect on some of my convictions
and i wrong

 

[Paul B]

You are probably not wrong and I am sure you know more English than I know Italian even though my family is Sicilian.
I just go by what "I" personally see. Of course I read and realize that researchers have been looking at this stuff closer than I do but I have been diving since 1971 and have seen a lot of things underwater. I like to post my personal observations if I can, rather than something I read.
You can't always believe what you read. Virtually everything I have ever submitted to a magazine was published as fact. I have no degrees, no fellowships, no political connections and no hair, but whatever I submitted was posted. I could have made this stuff up but no one checks so be careful of what is written as fact. Not that Randy's link is wrong. I am sure it is correct but it is only one example in an ocean with millions of wrecks.

 

[Cory]

lol

Well, if it was a billion ppb it would be a block of solid copper metal. :)

Volume of 1 marble is about 1 cm3 = 1 mL.

Volume of 1 gallon is 3,785 mL
Volume of 1,000 gal is 3,785,000 mL

So 1 marble in 1000 gallons is about 1/3,785,000 = 264 ppb

So 1 marble in 8,000 gallons.

so just one marble of copper in 8000 gallons of water can kill a coral? Copper bullets lol

 

[bios]

@Cory maybe interesting read about phytochelatin

 

[bios]

Thats why i run my sump in this way from 10 years

 

[Salt Creep01]

 

[bios]

Maybe some problem to play guitar

 

[Nemo's Janitor]

Often... one is unaware of heavy metals. They are/can be, introduced by electrolysis from faulty equipment. This produces Sodium hypochlorite

 

[Shaun Sweeney]

Thats a good article. There are many more like it discussing how toxic metals can cause coral damage. No one is going to admit to a tank crash due to metal toxicity. This is due to the fact that it is difficult to test for these at home. So when something bad happens in our system we have no way of attributing it to toxicity. So reefers blame it on anything. Bad food, bad additives, got a bad coral, etc. A lot of toxic metals get attached to things in our tank, like algae,rock, sand, cyano,etc. At some point down the road, maybe due to a drop in ph for an unknown reason, these metals can be released from these surfaces causing a toxic spike. Old Tank Symdrome is what Dr Slimak calls it. We should work to reduce metal input. Typically metals comes from fish food, industrial grade two part and magnesium in particular(trace additives are loaded in metals). Also freshly mixed salt mixes have high levels of toxic metals ( probably due to the use of industrial vs pharmaceutical grade raw material in the salt mixes. Thats why we dont do large water changes. Skimming, Carbon, Gfo can aid in the reduction of toxic metals. I personally think this is a bigger issue than most reefers realize. Dr Farley wrote a good article on this----check the stickys above. The only thing we can do is use good food, good salt, and good additives.

Hmmm, some fellow reefers locally are using our Strait of Georgia sea water in their tanks and they report a very positive response from their corals. They say the corals just light up when they use natural sea water to do their water changes. I've tried it once and didn't see and negative (or positive) response from my tank and I plan to make extensive use of it as part of running up my latest 140 tank.

 

[Cory]

Often... one is unaware of heavy metals. They are/can be, introduced by electrolysis from faulty equipment. This produces Sodium hypochlorite

Really?

How would this happen? Im guess bare copper wire would need to be exposed, that would be lethal

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hmmm, some fellow reefers locally are using our Strait of Georgia sea water in their tanks and they report a very positive response from their corals. They say the corals just light up when they use natural sea water to do their water changes. I've tried it once and didn't see and negative (or positive) response from my tank and I plan to make extensive use of it as part of running up my latest 140 tank.

I didn't see a difference when I've used natural seawater that I collected, but I can certainly believe some may see a difference. Why is another question. It may contain foods, for example.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Really?

How would this happen? Im guess bare copper wire would need to be exposed, that would be lethal

Yes, but if one gets a problem where a GFCI repeatedly triggers, that makes it likely that a metal is exposed and potentially eletrolytically dissolving. A broken heater, for example...

 

[Paul Carpenter]

I am certainly no expert on metals, Randy is the expert on that but I think the problem it is way overrated. Especially things like hose clamps, iron and metal leaching from certain foods. I would assume some flake foods and prepared foods could have some metals but If it makes any difference to this discussion I have hose clamps, probably 4 of them in my tank for 40 years as well as 6 or 7 stainless steel screws, stainless steel ground probe and thermometer.
Not counting many screws, razor blades, needles and other things I have dropped and lost in there over the years. I also have been collecting water here in New York since the tank started in the 70s.
I don't keep too many SPS corals but I do have a lot of montipora and have had plenty of acro's until my clown gobi spawned all over them and killed them.
I think if metals were a problem, my tank would have more metal in it than a chain link fence or Schwarzenegger's biceps. I also don't use carbon or any other materials that would remove metals or change much water. Also, if you do any diving on steel ship wrecks you will notice many more corals growing on the wreck than the surrounding rock. I wonder why.
I just thought I would throw this in.

 

[Paul Carpenter]

Totally agree with your Sunken ship analogy.....corals even thrive on the leaded paint used on the bottoms of old wrecks.
Heavy metal tracing in reef tanks is such a difficult endeavor and accurate testing is expensive. And coral bleaching and tissue necrosis have so many known causes already. I hope a simple diagnostic tool is found!.

 

[FranklinDattein]

There is another thread here named "how much aluminium will it leech" that discuss the topic more specifically on Al.

Answering the OP question, I have seen 3 episodes where metals killed invertebrates:
1. I Once cut an coral with a rusty bone cutter, 2cm from a snail which died on the spot. I repeat the experiment a couple of times later and snails didn't die, though.
2. Leather closing down due to high concentration of Al, after using marinepure and aluminium oxide resins.
3. The day I decided to remove the marinepure block, a cushion coral bleached in a matter of hours, likely because of the Al debris caused by moving the block. This coral is with me for 6 y and has thrived in very neglected water, years before.

My tank is 200l (50g) only, so volume doesn't play on my side.
I believe it is important to mention volume of the tank when providing examples. A razor blade rusting in a 1000l tank will less impact than in a tank 5x smaller.

 

[Paul B]

Hey Randy. Here is an interesting question for you. An aquarium heater would contain Nichrome wire. Of course a heater would also contain copper wire. But I wonder if nichrome wire itself would be toxic.
Quote:
Nichrome: Most heating elements use nichrome 80/20 (80% nickel, 20% chromium) wire, ribbon, or strip. Nichrome 80/20 is an ideal material, because it has relatively high resistance and forms an adherent layer of chromium oxide when it is heated for the first time. Material beneath this layer will not oxidize, preventing the wire from breaking or burning out.

 

[Nemo's Janitor]

Hey Randy. Here is an interesting question for you. An aquarium heater would contain Nichrome wire. Of course a heater would also contain copper wire. But I wonder if nichrome wire itself would be toxic.
Quote:
Nichrome: Most heating elements use nichrome 80/20 (80% nickel, 20% chromium) wire, ribbon, or strip. Nichrome 80/20 is an ideal material, because it has relatively high resistance and forms an adherent layer of chromium oxide when it is heated for the first time. Material beneath this layer will not oxidize, preventing the wire from breaking or burning out.

Hi Paul, Electrolysis is normally done using Direct current (DC) and not Alternating current (AC). This is because the anode and cathode are constantly switching places. Most heaters use Alternating current so there would be very little electrolysis taking place. However Alternating current (AC) in Salt water produces dangerous levels of oxygen and Hydrogen. It also produced bleach.

Faulty heaters usually cause the power to trip if there is a grounding probe. But there is also a debate that grounding probes could cause electrolysis.

I have had many a tank wipe out by return pumps and circulation pumps. What to look out for is water entering the pump block via a cracked cable. Cables crack very easily where the cable enters the pump block (stator) when vinegar is used to clean calcium build up. If one is getting a shock when hands are put in the tank, this is a good place to start.

Also, worn impeller shafts ware the impeller well. This allows water to enter the coil in the pump block.