Help diagnosing strange skin lesions

[Andrew D]

Hi everyone. I'd appreciate some help figuring out what is going on with 2 of my fish in my 500G fish only tank. Pictures are below but they are two of about 40 fish of varying sizes and types, the only two showing this kind of damage. One is a blue cheek butterfly the other a flagfin angel. They are larger than most fish in the tank but there are a handful that are bigger including a few tangs (yellow, scopas, purple, sailfin, regal, naso, vlamingi, dussumerei) and some angels (koran, blue cheek, maculous). I mention this because I'm wondering if it's aggression and potential infection rather than any parasite. I do see a lot of food competition and some fighting amongst the tangs but not anything significant involving these two. The other thing I think it might be is flukes, although the pictures in the stickies don't look as bad as this.

I have had issues with the tank before, significant fish loss due to either severe ich or velvet (couldn't properly diagnose, feedback on this forum was mixed), which I treated with longer than necessary periods of both hyposalinity and coppersafe, the former because I didn't have enough of the latter available when disease first set in. I have added fish since these treatments but I'm careful to quarantine everything now with coppersafe. I've never treated for flukes which is why I think it might the culprit.

The other important thing to add is that about 3 weeks ago I noticed some of the same symptoms that cause my earlier crash, lost 3 small butterflies with a number of others starting to quickly decline. This time around I acted quickly, dosed prazipro (only one full strength dose), dropped the salinity over 3 days to 1.012 and started dosing coppersafe. I know now it was risky to do all these at once but I panicked. Thankfully my fish recovered and I've not lost anything since then. I didn't dose more prazipro and slowly raised the salinity to it;s current level of about 1.016 but continued to raise copper where it now sits at the therapeutic level of 2.2-2.3. I did this because after the initial response I wanted to reduce fish stress by focusing on one treatment not three, and because I am most worried about ich or velvet given how quickly those can kill.

I think that's all that's relevant but please let me know if more is needed. Thanks in advance for your help. We are all attached to our fish but I've invested a lot in this tank since my crash and I don't think I could handle another one.

 

[BryanM]

@vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal #fishmedics

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi everyone. I'd appreciate some help figuring out what is going on with 2 of my fish in my 500G fish only tank. Pictures are below but they are two of about 40 fish of varying sizes and types, the only two showing this kind of damage. One is a blue cheek butterfly the other a flagfin angel. They are larger than most fish in the tank but there are a handful that are bigger including a few tangs (yellow, scopas, purple, sailfin, regal, naso, vlamingi, dussumerei) and some angels (koran, blue cheek, maculous). I mention this because I'm wondering if it's aggression and potential infection rather than any parasite. I do see a lot of food competition and some fighting amongst the tangs but not anything significant involving these two. The other thing I think it might be is flukes, although the pictures in the stickies don't look as bad as this.

I have had issues with the tank before, significant fish loss due to either severe ich or velvet (couldn't properly diagnose, feedback on this forum was mixed), which I treated with longer than necessary periods of both hyposalinity and coppersafe, the former because I didn't have enough of the latter available when disease first set in. I have added fish since these treatments but I'm careful to quarantine everything now with coppersafe. I've never treated for flukes which is why I think it might the culprit.

The other important thing to add is that about 3 weeks ago I noticed some of the same symptoms that cause my earlier crash, lost 3 small butterflies with a number of others starting to quickly decline. This time around I acted quickly, dosed prazipro (only one full strength dose), dropped the salinity over 3 days to 1.012 and started dosing coppersafe. I know now it was risky to do all these at once but I panicked. Thankfully my fish recovered and I've not lost anything since then. I didn't dose more prazipro and slowly raised the salinity to it;s current level of about 1.016 but continued to raise copper where it now sits at the therapeutic level of 2.2-2.3. I did this because after the initial response I wanted to reduce fish stress by focusing on one treatment not three, and because I am most worried about ich or velvet given how quickly those can kill.

I think that's all that's relevant but please let me know if more is needed. Thanks in advance for your help. We are all attached to our fish but I've invested a lot in this tank since my crash and I don't think I could handle another one.

At one point looks like bite marks from a tankmate but can also be neobndendia flukes. Is fish itching, sudden darting, gasping at surface and experiencing loss of appetite and elevated breathing?

 

[Andrew D]

At one point looks like bite marks from a tankmate but can also be neobndendia flukes. Is fish itching, sudden darting, gasping at surface and experiencing loss of appetite and elevated breathing?

No, they're behaving completely normal, normal appetite too. that's the puzzling thing. The marks seem to be getting darker, more visible.

 

[vetteguy53081]

No, they're behaving completely normal, normal appetite too. that's the puzzling thing. The marks seem to be getting darker, more visible.

i suggest treatment using seachem Kanaplex in a separate tank with airstone added

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi everyone. I'd appreciate some help figuring out what is going on with 2 of my fish in my 500G fish only tank. Pictures are below but they are two of about 40 fish of varying sizes and types, the only two showing this kind of damage. One is a blue cheek butterfly the other a flagfin angel. They are larger than most fish in the tank but there are a handful that are bigger including a few tangs (yellow, scopas, purple, sailfin, regal, naso, vlamingi, dussumerei) and some angels (koran, blue cheek, maculous). I mention this because I'm wondering if it's aggression and potential infection rather than any parasite. I do see a lot of food competition and some fighting amongst the tangs but not anything significant involving these two. The other thing I think it might be is flukes, although the pictures in the stickies don't look as bad as this.

I have had issues with the tank before, significant fish loss due to either severe ich or velvet (couldn't properly diagnose, feedback on this forum was mixed), which I treated with longer than necessary periods of both hyposalinity and coppersafe, the former because I didn't have enough of the latter available when disease first set in. I have added fish since these treatments but I'm careful to quarantine everything now with coppersafe. I've never treated for flukes which is why I think it might the culprit.

The other important thing to add is that about 3 weeks ago I noticed some of the same symptoms that cause my earlier crash, lost 3 small butterflies with a number of others starting to quickly decline. This time around I acted quickly, dosed prazipro (only one full strength dose), dropped the salinity over 3 days to 1.012 and started dosing coppersafe. I know now it was risky to do all these at once but I panicked. Thankfully my fish recovered and I've not lost anything since then. I didn't dose more prazipro and slowly raised the salinity to it;s current level of about 1.016 but continued to raise copper where it now sits at the therapeutic level of 2.2-2.3. I did this because after the initial response I wanted to reduce fish stress by focusing on one treatment not three, and because I am most worried about ich or velvet given how quickly those can kill.

I think that's all that's relevant but please let me know if more is needed. Thanks in advance for your help. We are all attached to our fish but I've invested a lot in this tank since my crash and I don't think I could handle another one.

Neobenedenia is the one fluke that can cause issues like this, but there is almost always some symptoms of white cloudy eyes on the fish and you aren't seeing that, correct?

1.016 is right on the borderline of controlling Neobenedenia - if your testing is a bit off and the actual specific gravity is 1.017, Neo can survive. The problem with prazi and Neo is that the eggs are tough and not harmed by hypo.

Two differential diagnosis here - bite marks from other fish, or secondary bacterial infections at the site where Neobendenia had been attached prior to the treatment.

 

[Andrew D]

Wow, I love this forum, replies from 2 well respected minds within 12 hours of my original post. Very grateful indeed.

To answer your questions...

- I can't easily catch these fish so am unable to treat separately with kanaflex. I also live in Canada where it is difficult to get some fish medications. How vital is this treatment, is there an alternative I can use if I can't get it here and lastly can i treat the display?

- No, I've not seen any cloudy eyes but I will check again when the lights come on.

- I raised the salinity after I started dosing copper because I read that it is stressful on fish to do both at the same time and I was more worried about quick death from ich or velvet (especially given my past experience with one or both of these pests). I'm a week into my copper treatment so I'd prefer not to have to interrupt this, is it OK to still drop the salinity to treat for flukes?

Thanks again. Andrew

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Wow, I love this forum, replies from 2 well respected minds within 12 hours of my original post. Very grateful indeed.

To answer your questions...

- I can't easily catch these fish so am unable to treat separately with kanaflex. I also live in Canada where it is difficult to get some fish medications. How vital is this treatment, is there an alternative I can use if I can't get it here and lastly can i treat the display?

- No, I've not seen any cloudy eyes but I will check again when the lights come on.

- I raised the salinity after I started dosing copper because I read that it is stressful on fish to do both at the same time and I was more worried about quick death from ich or velvet (especially given my past experience with one or both of these pests). I'm a week into my copper treatment so I'd prefer not to have to interrupt this, is it OK to still drop the salinity to treat for flukes?

Thanks again. Andrew

Coppersafe works in FW or SW, so using it during hyposalinity is fine from that perspective. I just worry about multiple, stressful treatments at the same time. That said, you aren't really at full hypo (1.009) so I think you are fine to run the tank at 1.015 AND coppersafe at the same time.

 

[Andrew D]

Thanks Jay. I read though that we had to maintain SG at 1.012 and not 1.015 to erradicate Neobendenia, can you confirm? Also, I checked the eyes and there is no cloudiness at all.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks Jay. I read though that we had to maintain SG at 1.012 and not 1.015 to erradicate Neobendenia, can you confirm? Also, I checked the eyes and there is no cloudiness at all.

So - the 1.012 value actually comes from me. The 1.015 value is from a researcher who found that Neo dies at 1.016 and the eggs won't hatch either. I went lower with the 1.012 value to ensure people get to below the kill level, but not as low as true hypo for ich, which needs to be at 1.009 (but is more stressful). His research is valid, I just wanted some extra buffer because it can't hurt and removes all issues with improperly measuring specific gravity by the home aquarist.

 

[Andrew D]

OK, thanks for clarifying. I'm pretty confident in my readings (I use multiple refractometers due to prior bad experience) but I will add in a bit of a buffer too. I appreciate your help.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

OK, thanks for clarifying. I'm pretty confident in my readings (I use multiple refractometers due to prior bad experience) but I will add in a bit of a buffer too. I appreciate your help.

Sorry - my post wasn't clear. I was using the term "buffer" to mean that I added a bit more "space" to the low salinity in order to overcome any mistakes made in measurement. Sounds like you know about the issues with poor measuring devices and are compensating for that with multiple measurement tools (that's what I do!).

Buffer, as in pH buffer, is also a "thing" with hyposalinity - less saline water has less carbonate buffering, and sometimes, people need to add chemical buffers to keep the pH up.

 

[Andrew D]

Sorry - my post wasn't clear. I was using the term "buffer" to mean that I added a bit more "space" to the low salinity in order to overcome any mistakes made in measurement. Sounds like you know about the issues with poor measuring devices and are compensating for that with multiple measurement tools (that's what I do!).

Buffer, as in pH buffer, is also a "thing" with hyposalinity - less saline water has less carbonate buffering, and sometimes, people need to add chemical buffers to keep the pH up.

Understood. I meant buffer in the same sense, extra wiggle room to make sure I'm at the therapeutic level. You bring up a point though that I hadn't considered, I can't remember the last time I checked pH even on my reef tank (I normally measure alkalinity), how important is this given also that I added multiple airstones in addition to my very active skimmer?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Understood. I meant buffer in the same sense, extra wiggle room to make sure I'm at the therapeutic level. You bring up a point though that I hadn't considered, I can't remember the last time I checked pH even on my reef tank (I normally measure alkalinity), how important is this given also that I added multiple airstones in addition to my very active skimmer?

Skimmers that are running well usually supply enough aeration for a tank. I do like to use an air stone also, just in case the skimmer cuts out or something.

 

[Andrew D]

Thought I'd provide an update. I'm now about 1.5 weeks into coppersafe treatment and 4 days into hyposalinity and while the lesions on the fish are still there, they are looking less raw and have not grown or multiplied so I think it's working. Behaviour is also still normal. So it looks like I'll just need to monitor and wait it out.

One thing though that I did want to ask is that since beginning my copper treatment my water has turned very cloudy despite lower light, ample (or at least not reduced) water movement and 90G water changes every 3-4 days. The tank is heavily stocked and I feed well, but no more than I did before starting treatment. To my knowledge nothing has died on me since those 3 small fish early on (I can't imagine 3 small butterflies would have done this). I do have some cyano on my rocks but no more than usual and my substrate is clear. I run a skimmer but not GFO or carbon since it's a fish only and I've not needed this before. COuld the cloudy water be a symptom of treatment or something else? The prazi I dosed 2 weeks ago has long since dissipated.

 

[Rene2br]

In my experience, when you see lesions on fish such as your pictures display, this is a sign of a fluke infestation that has caused a bacterial infection. Those red areas are lesions where the fluke is attached and causing bacteria to infiltrate the epidermis. Yes this will Kill these fish eventually. Although they say a fish can fight off infection, I have never seen it actually happen. Butterflys and Angels are fluke magnets. The smaller animals don't have the gurth to withstand the bacterial onslaught like larger fish do.

How do you verify? You'll need to catch one fw and see the flukes explode. They are really hard to see otherwise. Make sure your fw dip procedure is on point! Do your research.

Praziquantel the main ingredient in prazi-pro is the most effective treatment for flukes inside of the tank. The one downfall is that flukes can become resistant to the treatment. One theory is that they can get underneath the slim layer. Heavier treatment sometimes do the trick but that's tricky too.

You need to address the flukes but the bacterial infection will be the killer. So you have to address that too. Sorry, this isn't good news but I want to you be successful.

Treating your tank with copper will lower the pH and cause things to come out of solution. Cloudy water.

Catch one.. verify the parasite-- treat the lesions separately or enrich the food with antibacterial.

 

[Rene2br]

Ciliates can also cause lesions and copper and prazi will do nothing for those...

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thought I'd provide an update. I'm now about 1.5 weeks into coppersafe treatment and 4 days into hyposalinity and while the lesions on the fish are still there, they are looking less raw and have not grown or multiplied so I think it's working. Behaviour is also still normal. So it looks like I'll just need to monitor and wait it out.

One thing though that I did want to ask is that since beginning my copper treatment my water has turned very cloudy despite lower light, ample (or at least not reduced) water movement and 90G water changes every 3-4 days. The tank is heavily stocked and I feed well, but no more than I did before starting treatment. To my knowledge nothing has died on me since those 3 small fish early on (I can't imagine 3 small butterflies would have done this). I do have some cyano on my rocks but no more than usual and my substrate is clear. I run a skimmer but not GFO or carbon since it's a fish only and I've not needed this before. COuld the cloudy water be a symptom of treatment or something else? The prazi I dosed 2 weeks ago has long since dissipated.

The cloudy water is a concern, depending on the cause and the severity of it. I presume this is white cloudiness, not green, like algae causes. If so, that is from free floating heterotrophic bacteria. Those are feeding on something; uneaten food, fish waste or did you use prazipro? The solvent in that can cause cloudiness after treatment. You may also be seeing some affect of the hyposalinity - if hypo is run in an established tank, there is often a die off of algae, and tiny invertebrates that can cause cloudy water. If the tank does not have a good mechanical filter, these free floating bacteria remain suspended longer.

The bacteria that causes cloudy water itself isn't really the issue, it is that they consume oxygen that the fish need. Be sure to aerate the tank well.

Have you tested for ammonia? If there was a really large die off due to hypo, the ammonia may have spiked as well.

 

[Andrew D]

The cloudy water is a concern, depending on the cause and the severity of it. I presume this is white cloudiness, not green, like algae causes. If so, that is from free floating heterotrophic bacteria. Those are feeding on something; uneaten food, fish waste or did you use prazipro? The solvent in that can cause cloudiness after treatment. You may also be seeing some affect of the hyposalinity - if hypo is run in an established tank, there is often a die off of algae, and tiny invertebrates that can cause cloudy water. If the tank does not have a good mechanical filter, these free floating bacteria remain suspended longer.

The bacteria that causes cloudy water itself isn't really the issue, it is that they consume oxygen that the fish need. Be sure to aerate the tank well.

Have you tested for ammonia? If there was a really large die off due to hypo, the ammonia may have spiked as well.

Thanks Jay. Yes the cloudiness is white not green. And while I did do one dose of prazi it was about 6 weeks ago and I've changed a lot of water since. I don't have an ammonia test kit (haven't needed one of those in a while) but I did have one of those alert badges and it reads fine. I did test for nitrates though and they show high (25 on the salifert test), if I recall the presence of nitrates is a good sign, shows that the nitrogen cycle is working? As for aeration I do have a few extra airstones running along with an active skimmer. I am going to do another 100G water change and start feeding less, see if that makes a difference.

Below are a couple of pictures where you can see the cloudiness. For perspective, the tank is 65 by 48 by 36 high and you are looking through the long side.

 

[Andrew D]

Edit, I dosed prazi 3 weeks ago not 6