Help! I can't keep LPS alive (or "easy" SPS either)

[cedwards04]

@cedwards04 Thank you for all the detail! I am curious what you have been dosing for nitrates and phosphates? Also curious what filtration you are using (I am thinking my Chaeto is a big part of why my water is "too clean")?

Thanks!

I initially was dosing neonitro and neophos by brightwell aquatics. I recently switched to potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate that I ordered through greenleaf aquatics. Much cheaper option.

As far as filtration goes, initially I had no filter socks, and had a fuge with chaeto and I'm running a vertex omega 150 skimmer. I have removed the chaeto from the fuge completely, and have started using filter socks to catch some of the algae in the tank that is dying off. My skimmer runs most of the day, but does turn off for a few hours around feeding and dosing time. I also run a 25w uv sterilizer.

 

[abossi2]

Do you dip your frags before you place them in your display?

Yes, I have dipped all my frags in Bayer and then rinsed them well before putting them in the display. If the frag plug comes off easily - I remove it before putting the frag in my tank, otherwise I scrub it with a toothbrush well. I did wonder if the Bayer was possibly a problem but so many people use it without issue and I would expect if it did have a negative effect it would be more immediate.

 

[Samina]

Yes, I have dipped all my frags in Bayer and then rinsed them well before putting them in the display. If the frag plug comes off easily - I remove it before putting the frag in my tank, otherwise I scrub it with a toothbrush well. I did wonder if the Bayer was possibly a problem but so many people use it without issue and I would expect if it did have a negative effect it would be more immediate.

Sounds like you and I have a similar protocol. I use revive. Was asking because I am having a similar problem with my LPS. Mainly euphyllia. Great for a couple months and now slowly receding and even bailing. ICP done-no major concerns, stable parameters (8dKH, Ca 420, Mg 1340, 8.1-8.2 pH, 1.025 sg), good nutrient levels (NO3-10ppm, PO4 .08), good flow, good light (150 par in their vicinity), no pests or predation from what I can tell, GAC changed biweekly, etc. ... very confusing and quite disheartening watching them waste away like that. Feel your pain.

 

[nick0206]

Man your corals need nitrates as well as phosphates readable

2 different approaches to the content of SPS. The systems on Korallenzucht and Aquaforrest work on ULNS (ultra low nutrients).
So this is a moot point.

 

[Omarons]

Have you ever used copper in your tank for ice treatment ?

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the nutrient to alk calcium level. With 2-5 nutrients or lower alk should be 7.5 and calcium maybe 400. Running it that high with low nutrients will struggle. Even with nutrients at 5ppm alk should be maxed at 8 and cal 440 and mag 1350-1390.
What also has not been digested is, every tank is different. But the most is corals remember and acclimate. Where am I going with this? Well from the pages I read, he has corals but new ones suffer. If he changes the parameters and lighting, now maybe the old will suffer because they are use to this environment. Frogspawn and hammers do not need lots of light 50 par is plenty. There is always issue with flow too much or little etc. he is running a mixed reef which is much harder to run balanced.

Another critical item missing is from him using glass tops absolutely changes his critical angel of the light and par measurement. It will consistently change as moisture builds on the glass lids. It would explain the hot spots and uneven light coverage.

I suggest try one thing then wait a week, then if no change try one more and wait a week. With all tanks being literally different, the only constant we have is normal level salinity of sea water. A strong point is i see some sps dominant tanks with 30ppm nitrates .25 phosphates and does amazing. Yet examine the sps in mine where I run 2-5 ppm and .05 phosphates and they do fine. if you swap corals even after being acclimated they won’t be able to adjust. None of my sps frags will grow in the lfs tank, and no sps in that tank will grow in mine. Tried several times just for fun, and they lasted maybe 2 months. So Changing all the parameters is not ideal, he may lose corals faster and the ones that live 6 months or longer. Going from where he is now to 2ppm even needs to take 30 days or longer.

 

[ScottB]

Sounds like you and I have a similar protocol. I use revive. Was asking because I am having a similar problem with my LPS. Mainly euphyllia. Great for a couple months and now slowly receding and even bailing. ICP done-no major concerns, stable parameters (8dKH, Ca 420, Mg 1340, 8.1-8.2 pH, 1.025 sg), good nutrient levels (NO3-10ppm, PO4 .08), good flow, good light (150 par in their vicinity), no pests or predation from what I can tell, GAC changed biweekly, etc. ... very confusing and quite disheartening watching them waste away like that. Feel your pain.

Those are all good numbers and processes so I would stay on that course and let THEM adjust. How old is the system again?

 

[Shirak]

Those are all good numbers and processes so I would stay on that course and let THEM adjust. How old is the system again?

Sounds like you and I have a similar protocol. I use revive. Was asking because I am having a similar problem with my LPS. Mainly euphyllia. Great for a couple months and now slowly receding and even bailing. ICP done-no major concerns, stable parameters (8dKH, Ca 420, Mg 1340, 8.1-8.2 pH, 1.025 sg), good nutrient levels (NO3-10ppm, PO4 .08), good flow, good light (150 par in their vicinity), no pests or predation from what I can tell, GAC changed biweekly, etc. ... very confusing and quite disheartening watching them waste away like that. Feel your pain.

What do you have for temperatures?
How often are you checking parameters? My understanding is bailout is from more sudden shifts in something like temperature, alkalinity etc. Perhaps you are getting large daily swings in something which is causing stress and the slow decline and occasionally the polyp bailout?

 

[Shirak]

Hello,

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the nutrient to alk calcium level. With 2-5 nutrients or lower alk should be 7.5 and calcium maybe 400. Running it that high with low nutrients will struggle. Even with nutrients at 5ppm alk should be maxed at 8 and cal 440 and mag 1350-1390.
What also has not been digested is, every tank is different. But the most is corals remember and acclimate. Where am I going with this? Well from the pages I read, he has corals but new ones suffer. If he changes the parameters and lighting, now maybe the old will suffer because they are use to this environment. Frogspawn and hammers do not need lots of light 50 par is plenty. There is always issue with flow too much or little etc. he is running a mixed reef which is much harder to run balanced.

Another critical item missing is from him using glass tops absolutely changes his critical angel of the light and par measurement. It will consistently change as moisture builds on the glass lids. It would explain the hot spots and uneven light coverage.

I suggest try one thing then wait a week, then if no change try one more and wait a week. With all tanks being literally different, the only constant we have is normal level salinity of sea water. A strong point is i see some sps dominant tanks with 30ppm nitrates .25 phosphates and does amazing. Yet examine the sps in mine where I run 2-5 ppm and .05 phosphates and they do fine. if you swap corals even after being acclimated they won’t be able to adjust. None of my sps frags will grow in the lfs tank, and no sps in that tank will grow in mine. Tried several times just for fun, and they lasted maybe 2 months. So Changing all the parameters is not ideal, he may lose corals faster and the ones that live 6 months or longer. Going from where he is now to 2ppm even needs to take 30 days or longer.

All excellent points Sarah! I would certainly go slow and not try to change everything at once. I think the first thing to look at is the glass top. Removing it will increase par and make the light more consistent throughout the day as well as improve gas exchange.

 

[Silent]

You should shoot for 350 par at the spot you want sps to grow. More or less par than that is fine but 350 would be a good number to shoot for.
ULNS can absolutely grow sps but as sarah pointed out you need to stay close to natural seawater levels if you run a system like that. The is less room for error when running a ULNS so you might benefit by increasing your tanks nutrients.

 

[cedwards04]

Hello,

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the nutrient to alk calcium level. With 2-5 nutrients or lower alk should be 7.5 and calcium maybe 400. Running it that high with low nutrients will struggle. Even with nutrients at 5ppm alk should be maxed at 8 and cal 440 and mag 1350-1390.
What also has not been digested is, every tank is different. But the most is corals remember and acclimate. Where am I going with this? Well from the pages I read, he has corals but new ones suffer. If he changes the parameters and lighting, now maybe the old will suffer because they are use to this environment. Frogspawn and hammers do not need lots of light 50 par is plenty. There is always issue with flow too much or little etc. he is running a mixed reef which is much harder to run balanced.

Another critical item missing is from him using glass tops absolutely changes his critical angel of the light and par measurement. It will consistently change as moisture builds on the glass lids. It would explain the hot spots and uneven light coverage.

I suggest try one thing then wait a week, then if no change try one more and wait a week. With all tanks being literally different, the only constant we have is normal level salinity of sea water. A strong point is i see some sps dominant tanks with 30ppm nitrates .25 phosphates and does amazing. Yet examine the sps in mine where I run 2-5 ppm and .05 phosphates and they do fine. if you swap corals even after being acclimated they won’t be able to adjust. None of my sps frags will grow in the lfs tank, and no sps in that tank will grow in mine. Tried several times just for fun, and they lasted maybe 2 months. So Changing all the parameters is not ideal, he may lose corals faster and the ones that live 6 months or longer. Going from where he is now to 2ppm even needs to take 30 days or longer.

Interesting info. I have not heard of balancing nutrient levels with alk and ca. Is there some sort of reference chart or something somewhere to go by?

 

[Sarah24!]

Interesting info. I have not heard of balancing nutrient levels with alk and ca. Is there some sort of reference chart or something somewhere to go by?

Hello,

To be honest I have not seen an actual list, per say. But from experience with several different large local aquariums, it became evident with different nutrients and corals. The main reason and I will to find articles again to reference exactly is, the high alk and calcium will burn the sps corals. When the polyps are extended, this may cause irreparable damage to them. If they did then the sps will die.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

While all of the comments about nutrients have merit, you obviously have enough or you wouldn't have to trim 50%-60% of your chaeto every month.

Your tank has very low PAR readings. Everything you currently have in your tank can take a lot more PAR.

You didn't mention dosing, so unless you are willing to change salt mixes (not necessary), your ALK is were it is and I wouldn't chase it.

You really need to increase your light. I would add another LED or a T5 hybrid. I had the same problem when I started my tank. Coral would look good for a couple of months, and then slowly fade away. This was mostly with SPS. Once I increased my lighting, everything took off.

Remember, coral get 80%+ of their food from light via zooxanthellae. As long as you aren't using anything other than chaeto and a possibly a skimmer, you won't take to many nutrients out of the water.

I like to try to keep things simple. Your parameters look fine. I would explore the light route. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Samina]

What do you have for temperatures?
How often are you checking parameters? My understanding is bailout is from more sudden shifts in something like temperature, alkalinity etc. Perhaps you are getting large daily swings in something which is causing stress and the slow decline and occasionally the polyp bailout?

Temp ranges between 79.8-80. Parameters are monitored via Trident and KH Gaurdian. Apex for ph, temp, salinity. Salinity confirmed by Milwaukee digital and refractometer.
Also have a grounding probe in sump.
I think you may be correct in terms of swing on nutrients though. I had very low a couple months ago, 0 NO3, 0 PO4 and have raised them by initially dosing potassium nitrate and trisodium phosphate. After then, maintained by feeding more, cutting back lighting on algae reactor and skimming open with no collection for 12 hrs, 6 hrs with collection. But now my nutrients are steadily between 10-16ppm NO3, 0.08-0.12 PO4 and maybe those swings are causing the problem as @Sarah24! mentioned. Interesting. I have heard and read of the correlation between alk, nutrients, lighting, ph, and temp but I felt it was in a good range. Maybe the change in nutrient levels was too sudden though.

Sorry for hijacking your thread OP!

 

[abossi2]

OP here. I have never used copper in the tank. Over the years, I have added softies and they all seem to do fine (however growth is not fast). I have added softies and LPS at the same time and softies do ok but the LPS eventually die off. As @Sarah24! said, 50 par should be enough for frogspawn and hammers so I was thinking that light wasn't as likely of the cause as nitrate deficiency. However - maybe the glass top is a part of the problem not so much from par reduction (my par numbers were captured with the glass top on)... but maybe due to angles and hot spots that it creates that move around over time (due to moisture/deposits on the glass).

I am more focused on wanting to get LPS to survive than worrying about even the "easy" SPS at this point.

I definitely believe in the "only change one thing at a time" (and doing that slowly over a period of time if possible). It sounds like the most likely changes that might help would be the nitrate increase and glass top (removal). I am now thinking maybe I start with changing out the top with a mesh one and see how things react over a week or two.

 

[ScottB]

OP here. I have never used copper in the tank. Over the years, I have added softies and they all seem to do fine (however growth is not fast). I have added softies and LPS at the same time and softies do ok but the LPS eventually die off. As @Sarah24! said, 50 par should be enough for frogspawn and hammers so I was thinking that light wasn't as likely of the cause as nitrate deficiency. However - maybe the glass top is a part of the problem not so much from par reduction (my par numbers were captured with the glass top on)... but maybe due to angles and hot spots that it creates that move around over time (due to moisture/deposits on the glass).

I am more focused on wanting to get LPS to survive than worrying about even the "easy" SPS at this point.

I definitely believe in the "only change one thing at a time" (and doing that slowly over a period of time if possible). It sounds like the most likely changes that might help would be the nitrate increase and glass top (removal). I am now thinking maybe I start with changing out the top with a mesh one and see how things react over a week or two.

Timing-wise quite the coincidence. Today I was to place 6 corals in a tank "rebuild". I tested PAR first to determine placement and was floored by low PAR from 3 radions running wide open over a 50" wide but tall tank with salty glass covers. OMG the best I got was 150. At bottom, 50 or worse.

Took the glass off and got roughly double on all measures. The tops were NOT starfire (they were green on the ends) which makes a measurable difference. This was all new info for me.

Edit: the removable glass covers are now in the closet.

 

[Shirak]

OP here. I have never used copper in the tank. Over the years, I have added softies and they all seem to do fine (however growth is not fast). I have added softies and LPS at the same time and softies do ok but the LPS eventually die off. As @Sarah24! said, 50 par should be enough for frogspawn and hammers so I was thinking that light wasn't as likely of the cause as nitrate deficiency. However - maybe the glass top is a part of the problem not so much from par reduction (my par numbers were captured with the glass top on)... but maybe due to angles and hot spots that it creates that move around over time (due to moisture/deposits on the glass).

I am more focused on wanting to get LPS to survive than worrying about even the "easy" SPS at this point.

I definitely believe in the "only change one thing at a time" (and doing that slowly over a period of time if possible). It sounds like the most likely changes that might help would be the nitrate increase and glass top (removal). I am now thinking maybe I start with changing out the top with a mesh one and see how things react over a week or two.

Any particular reason for the cover? By mesh if you mean fiberglass window screen or something similar that might reduce the par just as much or more, as the light can't get through the mesh material.

 

[Shirak]

Lights: 2 AI Hydra 26HD, using BRS settings that approximate Radion AB (UV 119, Violet 116, Royal Blue79, Blue 80, Green 4, Deep Red 4, Cool White 22), runs at these settings for 6 hours with a 3 hour ramp up and 3 hour ramp down. Tank covered with glass top. Lights 10" above water line.
Par Measurements: (using Seneye) Sand bed measures 20-50 par, mid level measures 50-80 par, top level 75-180 par

I am still going with the par being your biggest issue. 20-50 at the sand bed 20??? really?? 50 at best?? and 80 AT BEST halfway up the rock.. If those readings are your highest values at these levels then the majority of the tank is under these values. So what you are saying is your sand bed for the most part is receiving less than 50 par and halfway up under 80 except for maybe a few locations directly under each fixture... These values are VERY LOW for LPS!

Going back and reading your OP again I note your light cycle with 6 hours full light and 3 hours ramp up and down. With such low par I would be inclined to change that to 60 minutes ramp up and down. Maybe knock 30 minutes off each ramp time, wait a couple weeks and do it again until you are at 1 hour ramp up and down

 

[AltitudeAquarium]

Help! I am not able to keep any LPS alive in my tank for more than a few months. The typical is they look good for about 1 to 2 months and then they start shrinking and tissue receding until the flesh is gone. I have tried lots of different LPS and a few "easy" SPS with no success. Softies survive - but really don't grow very much. Here is the info on my tank and what has been successful and what hasn't. I am looking for any suggestions/insights!

Tank: 90 gallon (24" high, 18" deep, 48" wide) + 15 gallons or so in sump, system is 2.5 years old
Flow: 2 Tunze 6055 running full (1450 gph each)
Lights: 2 AI Hydra 26HD, using BRS settings that approximate Radion AB (UV 119, Violet 116, Royal Blue79, Blue 80, Green 4, Deep Red 4, Cool White 22), runs at these settings for 6 hours with a 3 hour ramp up and 3 hour ramp down. Tank covered with glass top. Lights 10" above water line.
Par Measurements: (using Seneye) Sand bed measures 20-50 par, mid level measures 50-80 par, top level 75-180 par
Filtration: Filter sock, skimmer, refugium with chaeto, carbon/gfo reactor - but I stopped running reactor a month ago
Water: RODI with BRS 4 stage (measures 0 TDS), ATO using Kalkwasser mixed in with RODI water
Salt: Brightwell Neomarine Reef Salt

Parameters
Salinity: 1.025
Ammonia & Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0 - 0.5 (NYOS test, usually either on 0 or slightly tinted but less than 1ppm so I am estimating 0.5)
Phosphate: .03 (Hanna)
Calcium: 420 ppm (Red Sea)
Magnesium: 1320 ppm (Red Sea)
Alk: 8.6 - 9.7 but typically in upper 8.X (Hanna)
Ph: 8.2 - 8.3 (Red Sea)
Temp: 77.7 - 78

Maintenance

• Water change every 2-3 weeks (15-20 gallons)
• Filter sock changed every 2 weeks
• Skimmer - has been set to skim very little (to hopefully help boost Nitrates) - cup only fills after 3-4 weeks
• Chaeto - lit 12 hours over night, harvest 50-60% every 4 weeks
• Feed fish 1 cube frozen + 1/4 cube PE Calanus daily and occasional pellets in evening (2-3 nights per week)
• Have tried target feeding reef roids, reef chili, and other coral food - 2 times/wk

All softies seem to survive (GSP and hairy mushrooms have shown the most growth). Other mushrooms slow growing, 2 bubble tip anemones have split once each (over 9-12 month period), rock flower anemones have grown slowly, derasa clam has increased 30-40% over 1.5yrs.

Corals that haven't survived (different ones tried over the past 2.5 yrs) various Euphyllia (hammer, octo, frogspawn, torch), Elegance, Blastos, Candy Cane, Bubble, Chalices, Acans, Scoly, Scroll, Goniopora, Birds Nest, Montipora. The typical pattern is the LPS seem to "waste away" over a period of 1-4 months. SPS corals seem to turn brown and then die (over 3-4 weeks)

All fish are classified "reef safe" and I have never seen any showing any interest in corals. All new corals inspected closely for critters, dipped in Bayer, dipped in Seachem Reef Dip before put in tank.

Attached is a pic of my tank, a pic of a euphyllia I have had for 5 months now (has shrunk some over that period), pic of a hammer coral that looked good for a couple months and then started shrinking to nothing over a month period until all that is left is the skeleton.

I may be doing something stupid/wrong - so my feelings won't get hurt if you point out something. Just tired of wasting money on corals that fail and also feel bad for the animals. My best theory from what I have read is i need to have some Nitrates ("water too clean"). So far, haven't been able to raise Nitrates by turning down skimmer and reducing Chaeto hours (planning to reduce hours further).

Going to submit an ICP test to make sure nothing is crazy out of whack from an element perspective.

My tank has been doing a similar thing. I am following to learn.

 

[abossi2]

The mesh top I am thinking of getting is the clear mesh DIY type kits that BRS sells. The reason I want some type of top is I have several "jumpers". From everything I have read - in tests the mesh tops have very little impact to Par levels - like 1 or 2% (and that was with black mesh not clear). That tradeoff is worth it to me to keep all the fish in the tank.

The only spot on the sand bed that is 20 par is one corner. The majority of the sand bed is in the 40's to 50's. I have considered lowering the height of the lights to increase par (and still may - but I am not going to go changing a bunch of things at once and shock the tank).

What par levels should I be shooting for most LPS?