Help! I can't keep LPS alive (or "easy" SPS either)
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Shirak
Valuable Member
Not familiar with the mesh but if that's the case then give it a shot. Probably better than the glass. Lowering the lights will help but it will also concentrate the light in smaller areas and reduce the spread. Personally I would change the spectrum for more blue vs violet and uv as well.. but that's me. For par I would be looking at 100 minimum 150-200 would be better for a starting point and maybe go higher from there.. IMO
250 par sounds extreme for lps from every source I have ever seen online. I see a lot of sps tanks with 150-250 par. I not an expert, but I'd like to know where you get those numbers from. I have done a lot of research on this topic while trying to get my lights correct for what I wanted to keep in the tank. Most sources say 50-100 par for lps, 150-250 for sps. I think aside from par, spectrum will play a role also, especially when talking about led lights where everything is adjustable.
Silent
2500 Club Member
I think your numbers are too low. Check out BRS videos about par. They have some good ones taken from world wide corals tanks. Good information to get you on the right track with par and lighting.
Sarah24!
2500 Club Member
Hello,
There are substantial articles written by @Dana Riddle showing most corals including sps need 200 par. These have been done exclusively for arguments such as these. Normally I would have been able to locate the article, but having issues with that. There is also a very good video done which also shows this. People assume par is everything when pur is actually more important.
My tank is 34 inches tall (240 gallon), with my lights, im averaging 100-150 on the sand bed. But with that said my tank is also 10 inches taller. I have had hammers and frogspawns still do and they will do better in higher light but mine have never been colorful if they did. I have much better color and fullness with lower light. If he was trying to grow sps on the sand bed that’s too low. But softies don’t take hardly any light and he has had issue with them also. Increasing your light may have negative effects.
With so many tanks and options it’s hard to pinpoint, which this isn’t about who is right or wrong, but how we all look at the math problem. We have suggestions because they work for us, but i know my tank just as everyone here knows theirs better then I know there’s and not seeing it first hand. Another strong aspect is are the corals you’re buying farm grown or ocean raised? Farm grown in a tank are much more hearty. The ocean ones are amazing but any slight swing and off they go. I have yet to get an ocean grown coral (that’s culturally grown to stay alive). 99% of all my corals were frags from others grown in their tanks.
Here is food for thought lol when I had my 125 I only had fluval marine 2.0 on them. They barely make 25 par on the sand bed. Yet my Hollywood stunner grew to a dinner plate on the sand bed, Miami hurricane, reverse prism, and these are with fluval lights. But any sps I had to place close to the top the same with other more light demanding ones. But I too was losing corals and after me pulling my hair out, I found the brights were way too strong. Once I made the tank have a slight blue tint, things changed. This is an example only for when I didn’t have lights that produced a ton of par. What’s important is, my tank grew well on low power.
There are substantial articles written by @Dana Riddle showing most corals including sps need 200 par. These have been done exclusively for arguments such as these. Normally I would have been able to locate the article, but having issues with that. There is also a very good video done which also shows this. People assume par is everything when pur is actually more important.
My tank is 34 inches tall (240 gallon), with my lights, im averaging 100-150 on the sand bed. But with that said my tank is also 10 inches taller. I have had hammers and frogspawns still do and they will do better in higher light but mine have never been colorful if they did. I have much better color and fullness with lower light. If he was trying to grow sps on the sand bed that’s too low. But softies don’t take hardly any light and he has had issue with them also. Increasing your light may have negative effects.
With so many tanks and options it’s hard to pinpoint, which this isn’t about who is right or wrong, but how we all look at the math problem. We have suggestions because they work for us, but i know my tank just as everyone here knows theirs better then I know there’s and not seeing it first hand. Another strong aspect is are the corals you’re buying farm grown or ocean raised? Farm grown in a tank are much more hearty. The ocean ones are amazing but any slight swing and off they go. I have yet to get an ocean grown coral (that’s culturally grown to stay alive). 99% of all my corals were frags from others grown in their tanks.
Here is food for thought lol when I had my 125 I only had fluval marine 2.0 on them. They barely make 25 par on the sand bed. Yet my Hollywood stunner grew to a dinner plate on the sand bed, Miami hurricane, reverse prism, and these are with fluval lights. But any sps I had to place close to the top the same with other more light demanding ones. But I too was losing corals and after me pulling my hair out, I found the brights were way too strong. Once I made the tank have a slight blue tint, things changed. This is an example only for when I didn’t have lights that produced a ton of par. What’s important is, my tank grew well on low power.
abossi2
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The most recent 5 minute easy reef lighting video from BRS recommends 75-150 par for LPS (4 minute mark in the video). They recommend between 250-350 for SPS (but I am not really trying to for SPS).
The BRS video is here... BRS Easy Reef Lighting Video
The BRS video is here... BRS Easy Reef Lighting Video
So I watched the posted video, and definitely heard them say exactly what you said. I also went back to the brs/wwc hybrid method videos bc I thought I remembered lower par numbers being discussed in that video. Here is a screenshot where they say to shoot for 250 par in as much of the tank as possible. It also says shoot for 150 par near the bottom and that you may likely see 350 par near the top. They gone on later to say that some corals will respond with brighter coloration at 350 par, but not all, so not to shoot for 350 par, but to place those corals higher up where you may likely already have up to 350 par.
My take away from this is, if you want an all sps tank, shoot for 150 par at the sand bed. Otherwise, shoot for more like 75-100 at the sand bed and you will likely have spots with 150-250 par up higher in the tank that can grow sps. Trying to set lighting to be weak enough for softies, yet strong enough for sps, seems like it will be difficult unless you have a really deep tank.
My tank is only 20" deep, I get an extremely even blanket of par from top to bottom and side to side. The only way I can get close to that 250 par number is with t5's and my hydras set to ab+ 100% intensity. The problem is that this puts me at 180 par on the sand bed. Maybe I can create some shadowy areas down low for lps to kinda hide under to keep them from getting blasted too hard.
My take away from this is, if you want an all sps tank, shoot for 150 par at the sand bed. Otherwise, shoot for more like 75-100 at the sand bed and you will likely have spots with 150-250 par up higher in the tank that can grow sps. Trying to set lighting to be weak enough for softies, yet strong enough for sps, seems like it will be difficult unless you have a really deep tank.
My tank is only 20" deep, I get an extremely even blanket of par from top to bottom and side to side. The only way I can get close to that 250 par number is with t5's and my hydras set to ab+ 100% intensity. The problem is that this puts me at 180 par on the sand bed. Maybe I can create some shadowy areas down low for lps to kinda hide under to keep them from getting blasted too hard.
Shirak
Valuable Member
Excellent points by everyone. For sure you have to adjust for your own setup and goals. I think that 100 at the bottom is a good starting point. IMO you can always dial it down or move the corals or provide a little shade if needed depending on how they respond. If you are starting out with the bare minimum in light intensity there is little you can do and getting enough light to the corals at the proper spectrum and duration is so so important.
IslandLifeReef
Valuable Member
So I watched the posted video, and definitely heard them say exactly what you said. I also went back to the brs/wwc hybrid method videos bc I thought I remembered lower par numbers being discussed in that video. Here is a screenshot where they say to shoot for 250 par in as much of the tank as possible. It also says shoot for 150 par near the bottom and that you may likely see 350 par near the top. They gone on later to say that some corals will respond with brighter coloration at 350 par, but not all, so not to shoot for 350 par, but to place those corals higher up where you may likely already have up to 350 par.
My take away from this is, if you want an all sps tank, shoot for 150 par at the sand bed. Otherwise, shoot for more like 75-100 at the sand bed and you will likely have spots with 150-250 par up higher in the tank that can grow sps. Trying to set lighting to be weak enough for softies, yet strong enough for sps, seems like it will be difficult unless you have a really deep tank.
My tank is only 20" deep, I get an extremely even blanket of par from top to bottom and side to side. The only way I can get close to that 250 par number is with t5's and my hydras set to ab+ 100% intensity. The problem is that this puts me at 180 par on the sand bed. Maybe I can create some shadowy areas down low for lps to kinda hide under to keep them from getting blasted too hard.
Hopefully you will see better APR by removing the glass. IMO, you will not see the results you would like until you have higher, more uniform PAR.
Here is a shot of my PAR readings in a Reefer 170 (43 gallons)
And here is a fairly recent shot of my tank.
Notice the Euphillia and Frogspawn are in 200+ PAR.
Hope this helps.
IslandLifeReef
Valuable Member
Sorry, just noticed I said Euphillia and Frogspawn are in 200+ PAR. What I meant instead of Frogspawn was Duncan. As you can see above, my Frospawn, Hammer, Duncan, Acans and Leptostrea all do great at 200+ PAR.
I would say you aren't feeding them right or have too high of flow at least for blastos. I target feed mine once or twice a week frozen mysis shrimp with a little phytoplankton that's been thoroughly thawed. They've been pretty bulletproof for me as far as light, water parameters, and even tank crashes as long as they are getting fed the meater stuff they like.
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Currently battling/solving same problem, difficulty keeping LPS. I theorize GSP is throwing chemicals that bother LPS. During feed mode, when pumps are off, after a few minutes I can smell a chemical odor above GSP rock and, less so above GSP on glass, other side of tank. Tank is 75 gal. + 20, 2 years old, triton method. Trying to move to 'harder' corals, away from softies towards sps, Lps. Just added some more rhodactis adjacent to GSP rock, which I think is causing GSP defense. I can find a little anecdotal support for GSP chemical defense. Other opinions regarding GSP and chems? I'm going to lose the GSP rock and see if that helps some new favia that are not showing nice extension.
Shirak
Valuable Member
Could be something from the GSP. Do you notice a change for the positive if you run a little activated carbon?
Could be all kinds of other things too with LPS. If you could post tank parameters and lighting situation that might help too.
Afaylenerich88
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Yeah man need tank peramitors, what you feed, par. Power head you use.?
I would run carbon for 3 days. Pull it out swap it and go another 3 days. So about 1 week but don't use same carbon for 1 week stright. Try to get the gsp flow to blow away from corals to help aid the situation. As a coral *down stream* will get the brunt of the poison.
I would run carbon for 3 days. Pull it out swap it and go another 3 days. So about 1 week but don't use same carbon for 1 week stright. Try to get the gsp flow to blow away from corals to help aid the situation. As a coral *down stream* will get the brunt of the poison.
abossi2
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I am the original poster on this thread and I am still dealing with the same situation (LPS issues). I had no idea that GSP had chemical defenses. However, I run Rox carbon all the time... which I would think would help pull out the chemicals. I recently added some poly-filter to see if it would change color indicating metal in the water... but it didn't show anything. Since you posted this I am going to try to research the GSP chemical warfare possibility. Please reply back and let us know if removing your GSP rock helps. In my case - I have a huge mountain of GSP that is not easily removed.
Shirak
Valuable Member
Did you ever do anything on the glass top and see if you could get your par numbers up a bit?
What about a t5 bulb across the back? They make single bulb fixtures that are fairly small. I have a couple on my 36" 20 gallon. They just sit on the rim of the tank.. so close to the water.
abossi2
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I did remove the glass top (replaced it with a mesh screen top to prevent jumpers). That boosted the PAR a little, but then in April, BRS Investigates posted a peak performance video for the Hydra 26 lights like I have. The video showed the exact spacing for the lights over a 4 ft tank and best height to have good even coverage throughout. I adjusted my lights per their recommendations. That along with their color settings for Softie/LPS (they are targeting a 74-150 par through as much of the tank as possible) have me now at 85-90 PAR for most of my sand bed and 200 for my highest points in my rock structure.
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Abossi2,
The smell is gone. Time will tell with the favia. If I can smell it, the gac can't be removing it fast enough. I do run gac, but some theorize it is useful for a couple of days, perhaps getting a biofilm like everything else, which might inhibit its effectiveness. Also, gac is not like a filter sock, ie not all flow goes thru it on the 1st pass, so some of the gsp chemical is always around if it is constantly being produced (which mayor may not be the case). There might be enough to bother some corals.
Thanks for the help. for those asking about my setup.
75 gal, 20 gal refugium with chaeto and pods and live rock, skimmer
11 gal waterbox slaved to above.
Nitrates 2 ppm
Phosphates 0.07+, not ideal but the price of livestock overload, run lanthanum monthly
Salinity 1.026
Temp 79 to 82 in summer
Ph 8.25 to 8.5 in afternoon
Ca 407
Alk 8.3
Mag 1350
Ap700 8 hours 2nd bluest @ 75% with a 1 hour ramp
75 gal tank, 26 months old
Toby puffer - why we can't have nice things in this tank
Foxface
Harlequin shrimp
6 line wrasse
Tomini tang
2 blood shrimp
Starry blenny
Tailspot goby
2 clowns
Ricordea
Rhodactis
Frogspawn
2 hammer corals
XL Bubble coral
Buble tip nems
3 torch corals
Much Xenia, but no local smell
Patches of gsp
Plating sponges
11 gal waterbox, 8 months old
AI prime 16, 8 hours brs spectrum
PowerHead
Cleaner shrimp
Filefish
Zoa
Porites
Monti
1 acro
Favia
Birds nest and 2 other stylopora
Thanks for the warm welcome.
Ps. Gsp may only react defensively if triggered by circumstances. It makes no sense to waste energy on defense if not necessary.
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