Help me learn Sumps!

[MantisShrimpMan]

Hi Everyone!

I could use some clarification on Sumps. There’s a lot of info online, and I’ve already been steered towards resources like the BRS weeks of reefing, but I have not yet found any resources to definitively answer the gaps in my knowledge, only supporting info on related topics. I’m hoping I can call upon this lovely forum to help me piece together what I’m still unsure about!

I’m new to the reefing hobby. That said, I’m a scuba instructor and also an engineering student- I have enough background knowledge in marine biology and general STEM that I am a fast learner.

My first tank is a 20 gallon AIO JBJ cubey I bought used. I’m realizing it’s not ideal for my goals. It’s got a hood, so despite initially believing I could add the bubble magus mini Q skimmer, there won’t be enough room above the water level for the cup. And unless I spend a lot to have someone upgrade the LEDs built into the hood, the lighting won’t put out enough park to support anything photosynthetic, namely corals.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the better solution is for me to get a tank that is not an AIO solution, so as to be able to incorporate a proper sump. This will both add to the overall system volume, thus making the tank less susceptible to swings and crashes, while also giving me an opportunity to learn more as a beginner to this hobby- if I need to set up a sump, it means I also need to learn about skimmers, refugiums, etc. and gives me a firsthand opportunity to learn about forms of filtration that my current AIO can’t support.

I managed to find a great deal on a tank that is ~170 gallons display size. While I have not said yes yet, it is shockingly tempting, even though I have only just entered the hobby. On a tank of such a size, I can imagine that there is a significant benefit from running some of the systems that are absent on smaller AIO or Nano tanks. That said, as I look at more of the systems, I am having a hard time determining how they interact.

Equally noteworthy, this tank is a weird shape, and it could prove useful to build my own sump given that the stand will not be a conventional rectangle. So, understanding the order becomes all the more important when it’s not a turnkey setup.

here’s what I know so far:

The first layer of the mechanical filter is a filter to remove particulate matter. Are filter floss, black filter sponge pads, filter socks, and filter rollers all interchangeable? Or do you need more than one of those medias?

Then, activated carbon, then a bio ball/bio rock/bio ceramic type media.

But there are a handful of more specialized systems that confuse me.
-skimmer
-refugium/algae scrubber/algae reactor (are these all interchangeable?)
-UV sterilizer

assuming I incorporate all these systems into a tank, what path does the water take? Is water from the display tank first being sterilized by UV, followed by mechanical filtration, followed by skimmer, followed by refugium?

im having trouble understanding the order of these instruments. From what I’ve read, if I put a UV filter after the refugium, I can kill off a ton of the copepods I just raised that would have become useful food for fish. I’ve also seen some mention of a UV sterilizer being a completely separate loop from the loop that brings water away from the tank, through the sump, and back to the tank?

I guess my main questions are as follows:

-where do the UV/skimmer/refugium sit relative to the mechanical filtration elements
- the water first enter the skimmer then the refugium? Or vice versa?

and the component I’m most confused about- where does the UV filter sit in this pathway??

 

[Uncle99]

Employing all those methods on a new system would strip the nutrients from the system, counterproductive to what we need to do which is provide a balanced nutrient availability which remains stable.

Assuming good porous rock, going forward, you could start with socks and a skimmer which removes wastes and keep a log of your nutrients level. Keeping them in the 5-15ppm nitrate and 0.05-.15 phosphate levels is a good target but don’t get hung up on the actual number, it’s the stability in the number that counts. If over time, as your loads increase (fish waste, uneaten foods and the like) you can add other devices to pull more from the waters keeping those numbers in check. Water changes, carbon dosing, roller mats, UV, can be employed to knock the numbers down if they are consistently increasing.

Depending on what you keep, you’ll find at one point, your export methods will perfectly balance in as much as what goes in comes out.

You really don’t need any of them at all but they make maintenance easier.

As your system grows, so will your filtration methods, but don’t export more than you need or shell zero out starving your micro fauna population grow critical to success.

UV works best outside the sump system pulling water from the DT then returning it.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Hi Everyone!

I could use some clarification on Sumps. There’s a lot of info online, and I’ve already been steered towards resources like the BRS weeks of reefing, but I have not yet found any resources to definitively answer the gaps in my knowledge, only supporting info on related topics. I’m hoping I can call upon this lovely forum to help me piece together what I’m still unsure about!

I’m new to the reefing hobby. That said, I’m a scuba instructor and also an engineering student- I have enough background knowledge in marine biology and general STEM that I am a fast learner.

My first tank is a 20 gallon AIO JBJ cubey I bought used. I’m realizing it’s not ideal for my goals. It’s got a hood, so despite initially believing I could add the bubble magus mini Q skimmer, there won’t be enough room above the water level for the cup. And unless I spend a lot to have someone upgrade the LEDs built into the hood, the lighting won’t put out enough park to support anything photosynthetic, namely corals.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the better solution is for me to get a tank that is not an AIO solution, so as to be able to incorporate a proper sump. This will both add to the overall system volume, thus making the tank less susceptible to swings and crashes, while also giving me an opportunity to learn more as a beginner to this hobby- if I need to set up a sump, it means I also need to learn about skimmers, refugiums, etc. and gives me a firsthand opportunity to learn about forms of filtration that my current AIO can’t support.

I managed to find a great deal on a tank that is ~170 gallons display size. While I have not said yes yet, it is shockingly tempting, even though I have only just entered the hobby. On a tank of such a size, I can imagine that there is a significant benefit from running some of the systems that are absent on smaller AIO or Nano tanks. That said, as I look at more of the systems, I am having a hard time determining how they interact.

Equally noteworthy, this tank is a weird shape, and it could prove useful to build my own sump given that the stand will not be a conventional rectangle. So, understanding the order becomes all the more important when it’s not a turnkey setup.

here’s what I know so far:

The first layer of the mechanical filter is a filter to remove particulate matter. Are filter floss, black filter sponge pads, filter socks, and filter rollers all interchangeable? Or do you need more than one of those medias?

Then, activated carbon, then a bio ball/bio rock/bio ceramic type media.

But there are a handful of more specialized systems that confuse me.
-skimmer
-refugium/algae scrubber/algae reactor (are these all interchangeable?)
-UV sterilizer

assuming I incorporate all these systems into a tank, what path does the water take? Is water from the display tank first being sterilized by UV, followed by mechanical filtration, followed by skimmer, followed by refugium?

im having trouble understanding the order of these instruments. From what I’ve read, if I put a UV filter after the refugium, I can kill off a ton of the copepods I just raised that would have become useful food for fish. I’ve also seen some mention of a UV sterilizer being a completely separate loop from the loop that brings water away from the tank, through the sump, and back to the tank?

I guess my main questions are as follows:

-where do the UV/skimmer/refugium sit relative to the mechanical filtration elements
- the water first enter the skimmer then the refugium? Or vice versa?

and the component I’m most confused about- where does the UV filter sit in this pathway??

1. Mechanical. All are interchangeable, the difference is how much work you want to do.
2. Skimmer.
3. Media. Can be eliminated/or lessoned if there is enough rock in display
4. Refugium. if growing copepods etc. Scrubbers, while kinda achieve the same results are not favorable towards copepods.
5. Run the UV off of a manifold from your return pump or a smaller pump having the return come back to the sump or the tank. With the UV you are not killing the copepods, or anything else for that matter. you are sterilizing them. They will not be able to reproduce, but they still can be food.
Another note, That size tank maybe a bit big to buy used. There is a lot of stress that goes on with big tanks and unless you know the care and history well, a deal is not a deal when 170g are flooding you room.

 

[theMeat]

Hello and welcome.
Many of the things/systems you mentioned are not necessarily needed. Many ppl run successful tanks without skimmer or uv or carbon.
On my tank, 220 with 55 gal fuge, and 40 long sump adds up to 300 gal total water volume. For my sump I wanted to design water from tank goes to socks first, then skimmer, then refugium, then return pump where uv is discharged. Wanted to design the fuge to have low flow to give macro some time with water and a place where debris could settle and get consumed. I haven’t run socks in many years, (so now skimmer gets first chance at dirtiest water) washing socks gets old quick. Haven’t seen a down side to this aside from the sump isn’t as tidy, which isn’t a problem. Cleaning your sump has some disadvantages. Would recommend a space to run socks for when you stir up the sand, rocks or for when doing water changes, and would def recommend running socks on a new tank. The only floss of any kind I run is a very coarse exiting the fuge to keep macro from going everywhere. Haven’t run carbon in over a decade. Have a slightly undersized skimmer, and slightly undersized uv, with an oversized refugium and this has been working to keep my tank efforts low, while nutrients stay in check for the most part. Didnt have e need to do a water change for several years, as far as nutrient export goes.

 

[Subsea]

+10 to Uncle post. I operate, sumpless, skimmerless systems that rely on nutrient recycling to grow desirable biomass.

As a marine engineer and control system design engineer that worked in the field, I suggest you keep it simple and not over design your system with nutrient export.

Consider nutrient management not export.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nutrient-management-by-“old-school”-reefer.784640/

PS. This tank is set up for 25 years with none of the nutrient export you outlined. I frag & sell coral for nutrient export. The