HELP! MY SPS ARE PALING AND I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO

[Sabellafella]

Thanks to this great thread I'm hoping I have found a resolution to my pale coral issues. After lots of reading I've started Nitrate dosing this week and would like some advice/guidance to make sure I'm on the right track. I'm dosing to hopefully reslove my pale coral issue and potentially reduce/eliminate my nuisance algae. I apologize this came out to be so long....

I started dosing Monday on my 58 gallon with 5ml of potassium nitrate (stump remover watered down). This brought my Nitrates from 0 to .25. By Tuesday (24 hours later) it was back to zero. On Tuesday I dosed 10ml which brought my Nitrates up to 1. Today (24 hours later) my Nitrate level was .5. My plan tonight and moving forward is to keep dosing 1oML until I hit a nitrate level of 2 and then track and maintain from there. Since I started dosing I've noticed that the color of my Cyano appears to have become a much stronger red (kinda scary ).

my current levels tonight:
PO4: .009, NO3:.5(after dosing) Alk 7.2, Calc: 428, Mag:1410, PH:8.4, Salinity:34.8
**Nitrate has been 0 for 6 months. PO4 fluctuates between .000-.02 for the past week closer to .02
I dose AquaForest B and V 2 drops every 3 days or so and AcroPower 10ml every 3 days (just reduced to 5ml).

I always run 1-2 cups of carbon and just recently (1.5 weeks ago) started running GFO (1/2 cup) to help combat the Cyano. Other than that I run a skimmer and filter sock.

Full story:
I have a 58 gallon tank that has been up and running for 5 years now. I did a big 'remodel' on it 9 months ago changing the landscape and adding almost all new higher-end equipment. the tank has been very steady with the new gear now for 6+ months. My corals (mostly SPS) are doing well with OK growth. For the majority of those 9 months my nutrients were zero and my corals have been very pale and completely hit/miss on polyp extension. A few months ago I started to realize the nutrients were probably my biggest issue. I've been using AcroPower for 6+ months and found that if I don't dose it a few times a week my colors get worse and my polyp extension reduces.

Following the default path I added a couple more fish and started feeding much more. Since then my growth has increased and the colors are just the slightest bit better. I still have not seen a nitrate level > 0 in 6 months but my PO4 is starting to show. Along with seeing some measured PO4 I've started seeing a little hair algae and most recently (past 3 weeks) Cyano.

This has led me to now start moving forward with Nitrate dosing. From my readings it appears that my troubles with coral colors could be related to this. Also, even though my PO4 has been <02 and usually around .009 or less I still have some nuisance algae.

Any advice / guidance would be helpful. I want to keep moving forward but I don't want to be feeding the Algae.

Tank pic from tonight


Cyano:



Corals that need some colors:

Beautiful! Looks like your on the right path, i wouldnt sweat the cyano, itll go away on its own. Honestly it couldve started from the acropower, but itll resolve when you get back on track. Please cut your gfo in half, from what ive seen sps go pale when phosphates are extremely low. Id work on raising your n03, and feed more to see if theres good results. What kind of filtration are you running?

 

[mcarroll]

It usually boils down to light, nutrients and flow....one or more.

Flow
Based on my tank that's pretty similar, I think you may a bit shy on flow as grown in as things are.

I had no luck in my 50 gallon (36x18x18"D) with two of the pump like you have on the left....it was very crowded in the tank.

The pump on the right really seems outclassed in that tank.

I ended up replacing my two of the pump on the left with three "smaller" Tunze 6045's ($78/ea) and had a much better experience. Three flow sources was needed more than "more flow".

Your tank isn't quite as full so maybe you are still fine with what you have (you tell me), but it won't be long IMO.

Nutrients
I think you're on target with moving away from zero nutrients, but you want to be moving toward balance.

And moving slowly so you can recognize it when you get there. Not by moving quickly toward this or that.

Make fewer, smaller changes, further apart and spend more time watching for changes.

I got results from dosing nitrates and a tiny amont of DIY amino acids before registering any numbers above zero on my nitrate kit.

If you're seeing cyano, I'd back all nitrogen-source doses off by 50% and start there as your new baseline.

I would probably stick with just the nitrate dosing vs aminos too in your case.

Light
Tell me if/where I go wrong...

I'm guessing you have no light meter since there's been no mention of lux or PAR.

I will also guess that you got new lights among all the new gear you mentioned for your reboot.

My last guess is that the new light is significantly brighter than the old light.

In the face of too-low nutrients, as you figured out, this is a pretty typical response to more light.

A light meter (free lux meter app; $15 handheld) would have let you keep the light levels relatively the same over the transition.

I wouldn't knowingly increase (or decrease) light over mature colonies more than 2000 lux or so in one shot.

 

[illjoshlli]

Beautiful! Looks like your on the right path, i wouldnt sweat the cyano, itll go away on its own. Honestly it couldve started from the acropower, but itll resolve when you get back on track. Please cut your gfo in half, from what ive seen sps go pale when phosphates are extremely low. Id work on raising your n03, and feed more to see if theres good results. What kind of filtration are you running?

Thank you! I do feel the AcroPower is part of the cause but from my experience, without it, my corals will suffer. I'm hoping that nitrate will replace some of that need. For filtration I have a eshopps rs-75 sump with filer sock replaced weekly, eshopps 120 cone skimmer, BRS dual reactor with 1-2 cups Cabon and 1/2 cup gfo ( I only started the gfo 1.5 weeks ago)

 

[illjoshlli]

It usually boils down to light, nutrients and flow....one or more.

Flow
Based on my tank that's pretty similar, I think you may a bit shy on flow as grown in as things are.

I had no luck in my 50 gallon (36x18x18"D) with two of the pump like you have on the left....it was very crowded in the tank.

The pump on the right really seems outclassed in that tank.

I ended up replacing my two of the pump on the left with three "smaller" Tunze 6045's ($78/ea) and had a much better experience. Three flow sources was needed more than "more flow".

Your tank isn't quite as full so maybe you are still fine with what you have (you tell me), but it won't be long IMO.

Nutrients
I think you're on target with moving away from zero nutrients, but you want to be moving toward balance.

And moving slowly so you can recognize it when you get there. Not by moving quickly toward this or that.

Make fewer, smaller changes, further apart and spend more time watching for changes.

I got results from dosing nitrates and a tiny amont of DIY amino acids before registering any numbers above zero on my nitrate kit.

If you're seeing cyano, I'd back all nitrogen-source doses off by 50% and start there as your new baseline.

I would probably stick with just the nitrate dosing vs aminos too in your case.

Light
Tell me if/where I go wrong...

I'm guessing you have no light meter since there's been no mention of lux or PAR.

I will also guess that you got new lights among all the new gear you mentioned for your reboot.

My last guess is that the new light is significantly brighter than the old light.

In the face of too-low nutrients, as you figured out, this is a pretty typical response to more light.

A light meter (free lux meter app; $15 handheld) would have let you keep the light levels relatively the same over the transition.

I wouldn't knowingly increase (or decrease) light over mature colonies more than 2000 lux or so in one shot.

Thanks macaroll, I appreciate the help. For flow I'm running a mp40(reef crest mode) at 85ish%, mp10 at 90ish%, and a seaswril on my return. I think this roughly comes out to mp40 3000+ gph, mp10 1000+ and the return at 400-600. Which would be 4500+ on a 58 gallon tank. I think any more and my water would be shooting out of the tank . The placement of the pumps is not great, but at these flows if I put them any where else my LPS will get thrashed.

You are absolutely correct on the lights. I went from LEDs to ATI Hybrid power module. The Hybrid is 36in 4xt5ho and two LED pucks. I'm running 2 coral+ and 2 blue+ t5 bulbs at 100% x 7 hours and LEDs at 15%ish. I have not found a good PAR meter to see what I'm getting. My understanding is that you have to have a meter that can read both T5 output and LEDs as they come across. differently There are some fellow reefers that have posted thier readings for this light and I've been following by example. I was playing with it a bit too much at first. What I have found, and others, is that the T5s are plenty strong so the combination of to much LEDs can be over powering.

One thing I didn't mention was that prior to my tank remodel it sat for about a year-and-a-half almost untouched it was primarily an anemone tank with 11 large anemones and some LPS and only couple SPS.

Do you also agree that I should stop the gfo? It's only been running for a bit and I haven't really seen any benefit or detriment with it running. It does worry me a bit that increasing the nitrate may decrease the phosphate which would put me at on safe levels.

My plan right now is to get the nitrates up to a consistent 2 while maintaining the phosphates .02 or less. I've also cut the acro power dose down to five milliliters every 3 days instead of 10. Should I cut that down more?

Here is the tank from Las October.

 

[illjoshlli]

It usually boils down to light, nutrients and flow....one or more.

Flow
Based on my tank that's pretty similar, I think you may a bit shy on flow as grown in as things are.

I had no luck in my 50 gallon (36x18x18"D) with two of the pump like you have on the left....it was very crowded in the tank.

The pump on the right really seems outclassed in that tank.

I ended up replacing my two of the pump on the left with three "smaller" Tunze 6045's ($78/ea) and had a much better experience. Three flow sources was needed more than "more flow".

Your tank isn't quite as full so maybe you are still fine with what you have (you tell me), but it won't be long IMO.

Nutrients
.

I just realized I miss-read your statement at first. You weren't talking about more flow but 'different' flow.I agree, the two high-powered pumps don't nessasarily equate to better flow. The seaswirl on the return helps but I can't say that I'm overly happy with my flow. It's strong but not nessasarily perfect. I'm trying to find the balance between enough flow and the right flow while keeping the pump foot print to a minimum.

 

[mcarroll]

feeling.....seasick...



If you can afford a PAR meter, then get one – whichever one you want.

But don't go without a light meter in 2016. That's foolish.

A lux meter app is free and can work OK to get you started. A handheld meter like the "LX-1010B" I use costs less that $15, delivered and works even better. There are at least several of us who've been using them with good success – especially in avoiding problems.

How about an example? (I'm usually terrible at examples, so this should be fun! )

Imagine your tank is a map and you are lost trying to get your poor coral home.

The hypothetical PAR meter you mentioned will find you the right street.

The lux meter will get you into the right neighborhood.

If you get the coral into the right neighborhood, the coral will literally have your back after that.

Beyond that you're really worrying about the coral's business.
​

 

[mcarroll]

I just realized I miss-read your statement at first. You weren't talking about more flow but 'different' flow.I agree, the two high-powered pumps don't nessasarily equate to better flow. The seaswirl on the return helps but I can't say that I'm overly happy with my flow. It's strong but not nessasarily perfect. I'm trying to find the balance between enough flow and the right flow while keeping the pump foot print to a minimum.

Right on.

And again, I had two of the monsters you have on the left in the picture in my tank and still couldn't get happy with them. I had them both on one side. Both on the other side. One on each side. One on the front. One on the back. I think every combo I could think of. I really felt they needed more room to work properly. (This tank was even more grown in than yours.) The "little" pumps I replaced them with fit in and served the requirements much better.

 

[Fercho]

I had a deep sand bed like yours before and in my experience, that was the cause for my tank to get cyano. I removed half of the sand. Leaving about 1 inch of it in the tank. I syphoned/cleaned the sand and by doing this i removed all the nasty stuff that acomulates in it. IMO durty sand is what causes cyano in my tank.
In case you clean yours, i would probably remove half an syphon what remains. BUT do it slowly, over a certain period of time to avoid problems.

If you have read this whole thread, there is a link some where that explains that runing GFO 24/7 is bad because not only it removes phosphates, it also removes some other stuff thay your tank and corals need. So personally i dont run any GFO and have no problems.
I dont run Carbon either, only when i see the water needs to be polished a bit.

I dont dose acropower. I have some but dont use it because whe i have dosed it my corals seemed to get a bit upset retracting the polyps a bit, but nothing major.

Red sea aminos raise my nitrates, so i dont use it since my nitrates are steady between 5-6.

Only thing i dose is RS coral clors, and honestly dont see if it improves the colos. Maybe just a little bit. I only dose 2ml of each of the 4 bottles about 3 times a week.

Thats it. No GFO, No Carbon and only RS Coral Colos suplements.
I was in your exact same shoes a few months back, and after reading this whole thread and making these adjustments my tank has got back in track and today it thrives!
You're in the right path...soon your pale corals will not be pale no more.

 

[illjoshlli]

I had a deep sand bed like yours before and in my experience, that was the cause for my tank to get cyano. I removed half of the sand. Leaving about 1 inch of it in the tank. I syphoned/cleaned the sand and by doing this i removed all the nasty stuff that acomulates in it. IMO durty sand is what causes cyano in my tank.
In case you clean yours, i would probably remove half an syphon what remains. BUT do it slowly, over a certain period of time to avoid problems.

If you have read this whole thread, there is a link some where that explains that runing GFO 24/7 is bad because not only it removes phosphates, it also removes some other stuff thay your tank and corals need. So personally i dont run any GFO and have no problems.
I dont run Carbon either, only when i see the water needs to be polished a bit.

I dont dose acropower. I have some but dont use it because whe i have dosed it my corals seemed to get a bit upset retracting the polyps a bit, but nothing major.

Red sea aminos raise my nitrates, so i dont use it since my nitrates are steady between 5-6.

Only thing i dose is RS coral clors, and honestly dont see if it improves the colos. Maybe just a little bit. I only dose 2ml of each of the 4 bottles about 3 times a week.

Thats it. No GFO, No Carbon and only RS Coral Colos suplements.
I was in your exact same shoes a few months back, and after reading this whole thread and making these adjustments my tank has got back in track and today it thrives!
You're in the right path...soon your pale corals will not be pale no more.

Thanks a lot Fercho. I really appreciate the advice and experience. I would like to get to the point that I am only dosing the major 3 (alk,calc,mag) along with potentially nitrates. I'd also like to pull the GFO. I've only been running it now for 2 weeks and I haven't seen any value positive or negative. my PO4 went from .02 to .01 but prior to two weeks ago it always tested lower than .01. However, since I have some nuisance algae it's most likely higher than that. I'll keep running the Carbon as I look to that to filter out foreign chemicals that may get in the tank through air, etc. I have never seen any negative effects due to the carbon.. Plus, it's really easy to maintain.

As for the sand, I'm not sure that is my problem with the Cyano unless it just turned bad in the past month (when Cyano appeared). The tank has had this sand for 6 years and it is still very loose and fine. My understanding (which could be very outdated) on a deep sandbed you do not want to touch it. You let the snails, crabs, bugs, etc. systematically stir it up. It will process nutrients on it's own. If you stir it, you are now releasing those toxins/nutrients into the water column. If your sand is not deep enough you need to clean it as there is not enough depth to process the toxins / nutrients through their cycle. I have actually never cleaned the sand, not once. I did do a major stir-up of it 10 months ago when I redesigned all of the rock work. At that time I ran cabon heavy and did larger water changes. From 7 months to 3 months ago my Clown fish were stirring it up like crazy due to their Anemone being so close to the sand now... It took them 3 months to finally get comfortable with relocation of their home. Now they have settled down and spawning bi-weekly again(past 3+ months). Hear are a couple of topics talking to this (tehy area bit old) http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php

I think my original Cyano problem may have started due to some issue with our house water and my RODI filters clogging much quicker than expected. I have a 5 stage BRS RODI and I had an issue with it not performing very well a month ago.What I found was that my Sediment Filter and first carbon filter were both clogged. They were less than a month old. My city has been stirring things up (rust, sediment) in the lines to where we have had 'brown' water for an evening until the public system is flushed out. It didn't click that I should have checked on the RODI filter sooner. I had his happen again this past week. I had to replace my sediment filter after only a week. i have now added a pressure gage to my RODI and will be changing out the Sediment Filter every 2 weeks. I'm also thinking about adding a additional 'pre' Sediment filter.

Now, why the Cyano is still hanging out... I'm not sure.. Maybe the sand, maybe the fact i have the smallest amount of PO4 that it continues to survive. Hopefully, the NO3 dosing will also help with it.

Here is where I am at with my dosing regimen. It looks like my tank is currently burning .5 NO3 a day. As of last night I got it to 2(ish)ppm. My plan is to continue to test at 9pm each night to see if this trend continues or if it slows. What should I expect to find? I think right now landing on 2ppm is a safe bet. what do you guys think?

• 10/24

• 9 PM
  • predose - 0 NO3
  • 5 ml dose
• 10 PM
  • postdose - .25 NO3

• 10/25

• 9 PM
  • predose - 0 NO3
  • 10 ml dose
• 10 PM
  • postdose - 1 NO3

• 10/26
  • 9 PM
    • predose - .5 NO3
    • 10 ml dose
  • 10 PM
    • postdose - 1.5 NO3

• 10/27

• 9 PM
  • predose - 1 NO3
  • 10 ml dose
• 10 PM
  • postdose - 2 NO3

 

[mcarroll]

@illjoshlli I would be hesitant to change doses that quickly and by that much. Effects Visible effects can take from days to weeks to kick in.

IMO, stick with your 5mL dose for at least a few weeks to see how things play out in the tank. And let those results in the tank – rather than the kit – dictate your progress.

 

[illjoshlli]

@mcarroll Thanks.
My plan is to maintain the 2ppm. Do you think that is t0o much to start?

Based off of only a few days of dosing / testing 5 mL solution = .5ppm NO3 in my tank. My tank appears to be consuming .5 mL a day. So, my quick assumption is, on par with your thinking, 5 mL a day should maintain my levels. I'll continue to test every night before I dose to make sure the estimations become a constant.

Did you see your tank start consuming less or more Nitrates once you landed on a consistent dosing regimen? How long did it take you to dial it in that you were willing to go a week before testing again?

 

[mcarroll]

I haven't been keeping a certain number on the test kit...instead, I've been keeping my nitrogen input to the tank constant.

Eventually the nitrates started rising on the kit....but I think it was at least a couple weeks. But I was posting in the spectracide or chrysophytes thread....maybe both...lol....so you can track it down if you wanna be sure on the timing.

And it does seem after the last two weeks that consumption has been flat or slowing, with numbers on the kit finally establishing an upward trend landing at 25 ppm this go around.

The tank is still on course, recovering, but I don't want to let nitrates to get much beyond that just from me dosing....will see if the tank consumes them (and how fast) while I still add 5 mL KNO3 and a tiny amount of amino acids (10 drops) per day.

 

[Russ265]

some coral do infact do better in lower light. i get 300 par at the sand bed and my $500 efflo stayed in this hibernation state of paleness for (18 months) life.

i transfered him to my lfs with considerably less light and he is thriving. colored up. etc.

the majority of the LE corals in that tank look like trash though.

there is a saturation point with the one-off so play with height positions if 75% of your corals look right.

my .02

ps i still think aa is snake oil. lol (had to get that out there)

 

[mcarroll]

some coral do infact do better in lower light.

The Tyree Ponape Birdsnest was like that too from what I recall...that's still one I'd like to keep someday.

 

[Sean Warden]

So I originally posted this in the Potassium nitrate (Spectracide stump remover) dosing steps thread.

So I thought I would share a couple of pictures of the response of one of my Valida, that I thought was on its way out. Prior to dosing NO3 it was very pale, but did have some PE. However nothing that I did would ever get it to color up. It would either be brownish, or almost bleached in appearance.

I started slow by dosing only to 0.5 ppm (Red Sea Pro). The response was almost immediately noticable, and I have been amazed its current state after six weeks. Here are two pictures, before and after, excuse the crappy quality I'm still working on my photography skills.

I am now dosing to ~2.0 ppm weekly and the tank appears to be fine, with the exception of some spots of cyano. But, I'm dealing with that separately. Small price to pay in my opinion for the overall heath of my corals.

I am still shy about bringing the NO3 up to ~5.0 ppm, but I figure by the time I work up the courage my system will be stable and ready for the next step.

 

[Sean Warden]

Ack! I Apologize for the typographic mess at the beginning.

 

[mcarroll]

Sean, I would not chase a number.....you are after the restults, not a number.

If you're seeing results and things are still changing, then I think that dictates more observation, not change.

2¢

 

[Sean Warden]

Agreed. Thanks!

 

[DaveRaz]

I went from very low nutrients and acro issues to no3-15, po4- .06 and my 60+acros have never looked better the last few months. I did gain some bubble algae in the process but it seems to be getting smaller here lately. Keep some food in the water column and watch the corals. Perhaps coincidentally I dailed my testing way back as well so as not to worry so much. Some good info to be had in this thread.

 

[illjoshlli]

Quick update. My Cyano just started vanishing yesterday(Tues 11/1)! It was probably 50% reduced yesterday and 90% today. Interestingly enough, it was it's strongest on Monday. Below is my dosing chart for the past week. I got the Nitrates up to 2 last Thursday and stopped dosing to watch the consumption rate. By Monday night it had dropped down to .5ish so I started dosing again (5ml). The only other changes to occur in the past week was that I cut way back on my AcroPower dosing. On Monday my autoWaterSystem changed out 1 gallon (this occurs every 3 days) and I dosed AquaForest B and V (I do this every 3 days or so).