Help needed w masked swallowtail angels in QT

[drebay]

I’m in need of some help with two Genicanthus semifasciatus. Some background on the issue(s) in need of input prior to tank info/parameters. Both were active and eating at the LFS with no visible signs of illness. Once home held in QT for two days observation and feeding (roughly three weeks ago). Both ate voraciously. Began copper power. Three days later one start scratching solely on the operculum w/ labored breathing. About 4-5 days later this increased and piping started. Thought gill flukes, so dosed parzi (trying to learn in hindsight too so if this was wrong move let me know). First dose seemed to alleviate some of the aforementioned symptoms so decided stayed the course with two follow up doses scheduled 8 days apart. No adverse effects observed. Three days ago noticed one had decreased appetite the other still ate voraciously. I had to go out of town for two days so my brother took care of my tanks. He reported the formerly voracious eater was hiding in pvc and not eating. Got home a couple hours ago and indeed it is hiding and not eating. Additionally I noticed it may be experiencing diminished vision- when it ventures out it bumps into things and doesn’t react to fast movements in front of glass though seems to have a limited response to flashlight. So it is the reduction in appetite in one and vision issues (?)/hiding/not eating in the other I’m looking for input on or anything else relevant.

Tank:
Size. 40g breeder
Lighting. Ambient
Filter. HOB Fluval 75 and 30 with media from 1.75yr established tank.
Other. Two air stones and egg crate divider.
Parameters:
Temp 78 F
Salinity 33.8ppt (raising slowly from LFS salinity)
pH 7.89
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 28.2ppm
Copper 2.41ppm
Parzi 10mL per label second dose

This is the one hiding running into things. Gill beats 88

This is the one with decreased appetite, some fish eggs in the background that she’ll pick at for a bit . Keeps moving so haven’t been able to count fill beats.

 

[vetteguy53081]

How did you measure coppersafe and how long did you run coppersafe?
Scratching may be flukes. Assuming you added prazi at proper dose, the 8 days , then water change and one more application for days would be correct, but at times may take one more 8 day treatment. Adding oxygen with prazi also recommended.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’m in need of some help with two Genicanthus semifasciatus. Some background on the issue(s) in need of input prior to tank info/parameters. Both were active and eating at the LFS with no visible signs of illness. Once home held in QT for two days observation and feeding (roughly three weeks ago). Both ate voraciously. Began copper power. Three days later one start scratching solely on the operculum w/ labored breathing. About 4-5 days later this increased and piping started. Thought gill flukes, so dosed parzi (trying to learn in hindsight too so if this was wrong move let me know). First dose seemed to alleviate some of the aforementioned symptoms so decided stayed the course with two follow up doses scheduled 8 days apart. No adverse effects observed. Three days ago noticed one had decreased appetite the other still ate voraciously. I had to go out of town for two days so my brother took care of my tanks. He reported the formerly voracious eater was hiding in pvc and not eating. Got home a couple hours ago and indeed it is hiding and not eating. Additionally I noticed it may be experiencing diminished vision- when it ventures out it bumps into things and doesn’t react to fast movements in front of glass though seems to have a limited response to flashlight. So it is the reduction in appetite in one and vision issues (?)/hiding/not eating in the other I’m looking for input on or anything else relevant.

Tank:
Size. 40g breeder
Lighting. Ambient
Filter. HOB Fluval 75 and 30 with media from 1.75yr established tank.
Other. Two air stones and egg crate divider.
Parameters:
Temp 78 F
Salinity 33.8ppt (raising slowly from LFS salinity)
pH 7.89
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 28.2ppm
Copper 2.41ppm
Parzi 10mL per label second dose

This is the one hiding running into things. Gill beats 88

This is the one with decreased appetite, some fish eggs in the background that she’ll pick at for a bit . Keeps moving so haven’t been able to count fill beats.

I normally try to avoid running copper and prazi at the same time, but in this case, I think it was warranted.

Did you maintain a full copper power dose during the prazi treatments?
How many days ago did you do the third prazi treatment?

Jay

 

[drebay]

Thanks for the reply. I’ll respond to both questions here.

I’ve been monitoring copper with a Hanna measuring twice daily for about a week after initially adding copper and following water changes and daily there after. Ranges have been a high of 2.53 and low of 2.39. At day 18. New water is pre dosed with copper to match ppm concentration.

Parzi was dosed at 5mL per 20 gallons. Calculated water volume based off measurements. Total dose was 10 mL. I am 5 days post second dose. And a 20% water change preceded second dose. Air stones have been running throughout entire QT process.

Edit am planning on doing 3rd parzi dose on day 8.

 

[sc50964]

Nice looking angels. Hope one of them turn male.

 

[drebay]

Update. I noticed white stringy poo from the one with possible vision impairment. I’m inclined to think this is due to a lack of food intake for several days and may not be related to vision issues etc. but provide this info for those more knowledgeable to make such determinations.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the reply. I’ll respond to both questions here.

I’ve been monitoring copper with a Hanna measuring twice daily for about a week after initially adding copper and following water changes and daily there after. Ranges have been a high of 2.53 and low of 2.39. At day 18. New water is pre dosed with copper to match ppm concentration.

Parzi was dosed at 5mL per 20 gallons. Calculated water volume based off measurements. Total dose was 10 mL. I am 5 days post second dose. And a 20% water change preceded second dose. Air stones have been running throughout entire QT process.

Edit am planning on doing 3rd parzi dose on day 8.

Thanks - I just wanted to rule out misapplied medications, seems that you did fine with those.

There are some diseases, microsporidians, Hexamita and coccidia that cause diseases in newly acquired fish, but for which the common quarantine processes simply do not work for. The stringy feces could be from lack of food, but could also be from internal parasites.

Jay

 

[drebay]

Thanks - I just wanted to rule out misapplied medications, seems that you did fine with those.

There are some diseases, microsporidians, Hexamita and coccidia that cause diseases in newly acquired fish, but for which the common quarantine processes simply do not work for. The stringy feces could be from lack of food, but could also be from internal parasites.

Jay

Thanks Jay. Would microspridians, Hexamita or coccidia cause vision impairment that is seemingly rapid onset? It seems the vision issue is the most immediate need of addressing but am not sure. If they might be the cause how might I treat above what is already being administered (metro in water?). Though I’m reluctant to run three meds simultaneously if the need is not immediate.

I really do appreciate your input on this vision issue as I have been unable to determine potential causation from my reference books. Just want to do the best I can for these fish - it’s part of the responsibility compounded with the species being on my wishlist.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay. Would microspridians, Hexamita or coccidia cause vision impairment that is seemingly rapid onset? It seems the vision issue is the most immediate need of addressing but am not sure. If they might be the cause how might I treat above what is already being administered (metro in water?). Though I’m reluctant to run three meds simultaneously if the need is not immediate.

I really do appreciate your input on this vision issue as I have been unable to determine potential causation from my reference books. Just want to do the best I can for these fish - it’s part of the responsibility compounded with the species being on my wishlist.

The vision issue *might* be caused by Microsporidians, but not the other two issues. Do you see any cloudiness or changes in the eyes themselves? True blindness is pretty rare. More commonly, a fish that is weakened by something else will sort of "bump around" weakly.....

Jay

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I would get some San Francisco Bay Butterflyfish/Angel Formula. Seven Drops of Selcon on the Frozen Cube, thaw and Fed. BTW, keep the open Selcon in the Refrigerator and Shake before using. Can you do your water changes using your Display water? I don’t use newly made up water for my Quarantine Tanks.

 

[drebay]

The vision issue *might* be caused by Microsporidians, but not the other two issues. Do you see any cloudiness or changes in the eyes themselves? True blindness is pretty rare. More commonly, a fish that is weakened by something else will sort of "bump around" weakly.....

Jay

No changes to the eyes. Clear, normal shape. The eyes are moving from side to side seemingly at a normal rate but from my observation it doesn’t seem everything is being “seen”. I would characterize the bump around as weak. Trying to figure out that something else that has my mind going though I’m drawing blanks given lack of experience.

Can you do your water changes using your Display water?

Yes. I’ve been using water from my DT doing my best to negate any possible source of cross contamination. I’m aware new salt water has ammonia and didn’t want another variable on the long shot of addressing any possible environmental pollution.

 

[drebay]

Any suggestions on possible courses of action? I’d like to do anything I can but since I’m unsure of causation I’m a bit lost.

Going back to the previous comment on food it hasn’t eaten since this started. It was eating eagerly mysis, LRS nano reef, spirulina brine, assorted pellets and a hikari marine angel frozen mix. I do have selecon but hadn’t soaked any of their food.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Any suggestions on possible courses of action? I’d like to do anything I can but since I’m unsure of causation I’m a bit lost.

Going back to the previous comment on food it hasn’t eaten since this started. It was eating eagerly mysis, LRS nano reef, spirulina brine, assorted pellets and a hikari marine angel frozen mix. I do have selecon but hadn’t soaked any of their food.

Sorry - I don't have any additional ideas. Can you post videos of the two fish?

Jay

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I would take the Airstones out of the Aquarium, when I’ve used them, they seem to irritate and put off the fish. Could you put them in the HOB Filters, if they are truly needed?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I would take the Airstones out of the Aquarium, when I’ve used them, they seem to irritate and put off the fish. Could you put them in the HOB Filters, if they are truly needed?

You need to aerate aquariums well when dosing with praziquantel - bacteria degrade the prazi and the solvents. This in turn lowers the dissolved oxygen levels and raises the CO2 levels.

Jay

 

[drebay]

Sorry - I don't have any additional ideas. Can you post videos of the two fish?

Jay

Here’s a video of the one that appears to have vision impairment from last night. At the end please forgive the camera movement was trying to see if it would react. I’ll post a vid of the other when it comes out this morning. You’ll see some ceramic media balls that I added since I didn’t want to deal with any possible ammonia issues and are part of the reason for my frequent copper measurements. If this is a problem let me know.

YouTube video 1

 

[sc50964]

Here’s a video of the one that appears to have vision impairment from last night. At the end please forgive the camera movement was trying to see if it would react. I’ll post a vid of the other when it comes out this morning. You’ll see some ceramic media balls that I added since I didn’t want to deal with any possible ammonia issues and are part of the reason for my frequent copper measurements. If this is a problem let me know.

YouTube video 1

Looks perfectly fine to me. No marks on her body, tail, & fins. Eyes clear. Breathing normal. No erratic swimming. Maybe she just needs a little more time adjusting to captivity? Maybe she needs a larger tank? I know mine didn’t do well in QT and that changed after I got them a 125g.

 

[drebay]

Looks perfectly fine to me. No marks on her body, tail, & fins. Eyes clear. Breathing normal. No erratic swimming. Maybe she just needs a little more time adjusting to captivity? Maybe she needs a larger tank? I know mine didn’t do well in QT and that changed after I got them a 125g.

Thing is this was a drastic and sudden change in behavior with no known external causes. Went from active swimming and eating to hiding, not eating, lethargic bumping into things with in a day. It was just fine for the better part of three weeks until that point.

 

[sc50964]

Thing is this was a drastic and sudden change in behavior with no known external causes. Went from active swimming and eating to hiding, not eating, lethargic bumping into things with in a day. It was just fine for the better part of three weeks until that point.

40g can be stressful for two females. My exp with this species is that they generally don’t do well in small QTs.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here’s a video of the one that appears to have vision impairment from last night. At the end please forgive the camera movement was trying to see if it would react. I’ll post a vid of the other when it comes out this morning. You’ll see some ceramic media balls that I added since I didn’t want to deal with any possible ammonia issues and are part of the reason for my frequent copper measurements. If this is a problem let me know.

YouTube video 1

IMO - the fish has impaired vision, but is not totally blind. Its coloration seems darkened (like night time) and I saw it bump the black egg crate, but it is navigating the PVC pipes very well, and its eyes are focusing and glancing around (I think you mentioned that).

The sudden shift from eating to not is the huge issue. I know people will say, "use Selcon, add garlic, etc." but in my experience, when a fish has a sudden cessation of feeding, simple enticements will not correct the issue.

The only thing I can think of to try is this: light the tank a bit better to try and overcome its sigh impairment. Then, add some live baby brine shrimp, and leave the room with your phone recording a video. If it doesn't eat any baby brine, then it truly is off its feed.

I still cannot tell you why it went off its feed though, sorry!

Jay