Help! New tank, really confusing cycle

[BeanAnimal]

There are at least some reports that different levels of ammonia promote different bacterial genus/types, whatever. The "stall" has been described as the crossover point from the boom and bust of one genus, to the prevalence of another genus/type (I'm definitely not a biologist). Due to the slow reproduction rates of true nitrifiers this crossover point looks like a "stall", according to reports.

Correct - eventually something is likely going to consume the ammonia. But if that is not the traditional nitrifying pathways (they have no food due to the damage at the top of their food chain), then all bets are off as to the timing and what other heterotrophic (or even autotrophic) bacteria expand to do the job. Bacteria need food too!

Your point is actually logically sound.

Tank is started and a pile of heterotrophs and ammonia are poured in. The heterotrophs start consuming the ammonia, driving it down -- but are also ravishing the organic carbon as they go. At some point they run out of carbon before ammonia. Because the traditional nitrifiers never had a chance to take a foothold, the "cycle" stall due to carbon limitation -- or as Dr. Reef said, even lack of oxygen.

So in short - a hetfertropic bloom was created and it consumed what it could, ran out of food and collapsed before the nitrifies could rise and populate. They can't now because there is no food, just raw ammonia. Given time, the cycle will likely complete on its own. The needed food might come from the now dying precursor bacteria, or just organic matter settling over time.

@Lasse you may want to hop on in here and give the ol' Swedish twerk and screw :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[Lasse]

I do not known how many times I have to say this - The NOB (second steps bacteria Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria) is not using organic carbon as a carbons source - they use inorganic carbon as HCO3 and CO3 that they convert into CO2. Adding organic carbon will only benefit the heterotrophic bacteria so that they outcompete NOB from usable surface area. However NOB needs inorganic PO4 too.

High ammonia (like this 6 ppm) will probably reduce NOB's growth rate too.

But I´m not sure the problem is with the NOB

You have decrease NH3/NH4 with 4 ppm - This correspond to 3.11 mg/L NH4-N If this should be total converted into NO3-N - it should be 3.11 mg/L as well. 3.11 mg/L NO3-N = 4.42*3.11 (13.77) NO3

You read 2 mg/L NO3 - its the same as 0.45 NO3-N. It is around 2.7 NO3-N to little.

When you calculate with NH4-N, NH3-N, NO3-N and NO2-N - you only mean the concentration of the N in the compound. This means that X mg/L NH4-N = X mg/L NH3-N = X mg/L NO2-N = X mg/L NO3-N = X mg/L N

With other words - you miss around 2.7 mg/L N in your balance sheet.

The reason of this can be low accuracy in your measuring methods but also that you can have lost a lot into the air as NH3-N. Ammonia in a water solution is always 2 headed - > NH3 and NH4 (the gas and the ion) The ratio among them is mostly decided by pH

At T= 79 degree F, Salinity 34 psu and pH 8 - NH3 is around 5 % of NH3+NH4 - at pH 8.5 - NH3 is around 14 % off total ammonia (NH3 + NH4)

Calculator free ammonia (the toxic form)


NH3 is a gas - its therefor possible to gas it out into the air with help of a skimmer or strong agitation of the water surface. As son as NH3 is gassed out the ratio of the remaining total ammonia will settle to the same percentage - and new NH3 can be gassed out - and so on

So I'm confused why there are no Nitrates. I'm actually thinking I should dose Ammonia again and see if it gets processed. Is that dumb?

Its not only dumb - its idiotic IMO.

I would maybe add some more Fritz and live sand and see if NH3/NH4 is going down. It could also be good to add some PO4 to the system (for growth of the NOB). It could be with a very small amount of dry feed or as a chemical product, Reef Roids - if you have that could be a good PO4 source too

Basically - wait and see - if total ammonia is below 0.5 you can probably add a fish - but feed it very sparse. Please see this for some tips of feeding regime



Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

So I think were are both meeting on the same end of bandy field... good to know :)

 

[Reefering1]

I do not known how many times I have to say this - The NOB (second steps bacteria Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria) is not using organic carbon as a carbons source - they use inorganic carbon as HCO3 and CO3 that they convert into CO2. Adding organic carbon will only benefit the heterotrophic bacteria so that they outcompete NOB from usable surface area. However NOB needs inorganic PO4 too.

High ammonia (like this 6 ppm) will probably reduce NOB's growth rate too.

But I´m not sure the problem is with the NOB

You have decrease NH3/NH4 with 4 ppm - This correspond to 3.11 mg/L NH4-N If this should be total converted into NO3-N - it should be 3.11 mg/L as well. 3.11 mg/L NO3-N = 4.42*3.11 (13.77) NO3

You read 2 mg/L NO3 - its the same as 0.45 NO3-N. It is around 2.7 NO3-N to little.

When you calculate with NH4-N, NH3-N, NO3-N and NO2-N - you only mean the concentration of the N in the compound. This means that X mg/L NH4-N = X mg/L NH3-N = X mg/L NO2-N = X mg/L NO3-N = X mg/L N

With other words - you miss around 2.7 mg/L N in your balance sheet.

The reason of this can be low accuracy in your measuring methods but also that you can have lost a lot into the air as NH3-N. Ammonia in a water solution is always 2 headed - > NH3 and NH4 (the gas and the ion) The ratio among them is mostly decided by pH

At T= 79 degree F, Salinity 34 psu and pH 8 - NH3 is around 5 % of NH3+NH4 - at pH 8.5 - NH3 is around 14 % off total ammonia (NH3 + NH4)

Calculator free ammonia (the toxic form)


NH3 is a gas - its therefor possible to gas it out into the air with help of a skimmer or strong agitation of the water surface. As son as NH3 is gassed out the ratio of the remaining total ammonia will settle to the same percentage - and new NH3 can be gassed out - and so on


Its not only dumb - its idiotic IMO.

I would maybe add some more Fritz and live sand and see if NH3/NH4 is going down. It could also be good to add some PO4 to the system (for growth of the NOB). It could be with a very small amount of dry feed or as a chemical product, Reef Roids - if you have that could be a good PO4 source too

Basically - wait and see - if total ammonia is below 0.5 you can probably add a fish - but feed it very sparse. Please see this for some tips of feeding regime



Sincerely Lasse

Ohh, well.., anything sounds simple when you put it like that! ;)

 

[BeanAnimal]

We are both (4 of us, actually) basically saying that --

There was a heterotrophic bloom that consumed the resources that would have otherwise fueled the rapid establishment of true nitrifiers.

Part of the ammonia was consumed but the process stalled due to lack of food for the heterotrophs and no established nitrifiers to pick up the slack.

While we may differ in level of understanding or the finer details - we are basically in agreement that the cycle "stalled" and may need a bit of a bump to rapidly move forward. Lasse added some detail and math, as well as a bit more depth in experience and understanding.

 

[Lasse]

+

=

​

Bandy with accessories- that´s Swedish culture!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would assume it would be aquavit...

... as inanely terrible as that stuff is.

 

[ShanePike]

@Garf, @BeanAnimal, and @Lasse, thank y'all so much for typing up all those long explanations. This was all new to me, and I could not understand why ammonia went away without a corresponding amount of nitrate being created. It makes sense now — and it's absolutely fascinating.

 

[BeanAnimal]

@Garf, @BeanAnimal, and @Lasse, thank y'all so much for typing up all those long explanations. This was all new to me, and I could not understand why ammonia went away without a corresponding amount of nitrate being created. It makes sense now — and it's absolutely fascinating.

Quite welcome -- maybe the simple fact based conversation can help enlighten other's who may be entrenched in their beliefs that a cycle can't stall, or that a cycle can't take more than x number of days, no matter what.

Birds are real, and bacteria needs food too!

 

[_chiefxr33f]

The way that I have *always* combatted the insane ammonia and nitrite spike is a bit of prime, maybe- but ALWAYS add more nitrifying bacteria. I used a handful of different ones a few days apart and had my tankS (nitrogen) cycled in two weeks. Ugly phase takes longer if you do it this way though. It will absolutely accomplish what you want though. Water changes are only going to prolong the cycle.

 

[MNscoe]

@Dr. Reef @ShanePike @Garf @BeanAnimal @Lasse and everyone, thank you for the comments and insights! Lasse, I had no idea about the chemistries you described, I'm still decoding it and learning a ton. Thank you!

After the 30% water change, I added a very small bit of fish food. Then left town for two nights. Tonight I got back and ammonia is finally down slightly and I finally have some nitrates! See updated chart.

I don't have PO4 handy, so I guess I'm just going to wait patiently and monitor it. If ammonia goes to zero, should I do a "test" at any point by adding a low-dose ammonia and see if it goes to zero again in 24 hours? Or is that not necessary, and I could add a fish? My plan is to start with two clown fish.

Thanks again!

 

[Lasse]

After the 30% water change, I added a very small bit of fish food. Then left town for two nights. Tonight I got back and ammonia is finally down slightly and I finally have some nitrates! See updated chart.

Thank´s for that information. I think that this fish food bring in some PO4 into your system and the whole system starts as it should

I don't have PO4 handy, so I guess I'm just going to wait patiently and monitor it. If ammonia goes to zero, should I do a "test" at any point by adding a low-dose ammonia and see if it goes to zero again in 24 hours? Or is that not necessary, and I could add a fish? My plan is to start with two clown fish.

Thanks again!

IMO - do not ad any new chemical NH3/NH4 to your system - IMO - you are home - if you read total ammonia around 0.2-0.5 its probably a false reading - whatsoever the NH3/NH4 values are safe for fish,

Your chart is interesting - let me explain. Your NH3/NH4 decline (red circle) - NO2 was the first "metabolite" from that process. The initial raise of NO3 is not only cased by transformation of NO2 to NO3 in the second step - its also a miss reading because NO2 in the water before the NO3 test interfere with the result of the test of NO3. You can see this because the NO3 decline when NO2 decline. In the green circle - you can see the same thing happens. NH3/NH4 decline - NO2 rise and a huge raise in NO3 (partly because of the NO2 concentration)

In saltwater - NO2 is not as toxic to fish and other gill breathing animala as it is in freshwater. IMO - you can start with two clowns now but feed them very sparse the first 3 weeks. They will release NH3/NH4 the first hours after each feed and you nitrification system need to adapt in population in order to mange the input of NH3/NH4. If NH3/NH4 gets to high - it can depress the second step NO2->NO3. Second step bacteria (NOB = nitrate-oxidizing bacteria) grow slower than most other bacteria - they need time to establish a suitable population. If you not have read this - do it. I think it can give you some ideas - you may not need to be as conservative with the feed as I describe in the 15 steps but be careful with the feeding. A good advise is normally - take as much feed as you think is little - give the fish 25-50% of it. IMO - you can start with two healthy and well feed clowns already now as long as you control your feeding pattern. Frozen adult artemia is very good to start with - its difficult to overfeed with that. Dry food will contribute with more than 7 times more NH3/NH4 per weight unit compared with frozen wet food like adult artemia.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[scaredmantisshrimp]

As a beginner I may as well been reading hieroglyphics

 

[BeanAnimal]

The way that I have *always* combatted the insane ammonia and nitrite spike is a bit of prime

Prime does nothing to lower ammonia. It is marketing lie.

 

[ShanePike]

After the 30% water change, I added a very small bit of fish food. Then left town for two nights. Tonight I got back and ammonia is finally down slightly and I finally have some nitrates! See updated chart.

 

[MNscoe]

Your chart is interesting - let me explain.

@Lasse, this is very helpful, thanks. And I read your 15-Steps post -- wish I would have seen it 2 months ago. One detail I realized is that I didn't rinse my dry rock at all, just set it in the tank (days after gluing and epoxy) and added my saltwater. Maybe no big deal, but just mentioning it.

Yesterday measurements: Nitrates at 10, trace NH3/NH4 and trace NO2.

I'm off to purchase frozen adult artemia and two clown fish! An exciting day -- my first saltwater fish!

(I wonder if they'll survive... :) )

MNscoe

 

[Lasse]

(I wonder if they'll survive... :) )

They will and you can probably feed them every day but rather little

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MNscoe]

Added two clown fish yesterday, an adult pair that had been together for 2 -3 years. Gave them a bit of artemia today and they loved it and appear very happy in their new home. NH3 and N02 both at zero, NO3 steady at 10ppm.

Thanks everyone for the assistance!

 

[MNscoe]

Update 10 days after adding first 2 clownfish:

I'm having fun! My fish are happy, my tank seems stable -- I test every few days out of curiosity. N03 is staying <10ppm, I expected it would slowly increase... Updated graph below. My untrained eye sees no diatoms or algae yet.

On day 5 I added a small initial CUC: 2 turbo, 2 nassarius, 4 hermits. Per @Lasse's 15-day startup post I understand I could (should) add quite a bit more. I just wanted to see what they were and learn what they do.
I'm feeding the clownfish a small portion artemia once daily. No water change since adding fish.

I believe I could add a soft coral or two now. However, my goal is to add an anemone so I want to make sure whatever I add is compatible with an anemone.

Question 1: should I wait on corals and add the anemone first (whenever my tank is considered mature)?
Question 2: given my stable parameters, can I add another fish yet?

Thanks!
MnScoe

 

[Lasse]

Thank´s for the update!

As early as it is in your aquariums life cycle - your production of NH3/NH4 is mainly from the food your adding. As long as you slowly rise the amount from the recent amount - IMO - an introduction of a new fish could be done.

The question of soft corals, CUC, light and adding more food is like balancing act on a slack rope. If you add photosynthetic animals (like most corals) you need enough of light. If you rise the light your unwanted organisms (nuisance algae as an example) will get a boost especially if you also rise the daily amount of food. In that case you need a CUC large enough to handle the raise of your daily production of these algae. A soft coral that have grow in an healthy aquarium can stand a period with low illumination but in general demand more light than microalgae. On the other hand - it will take some of the nutrients from the nuisance algae. I think you understand the logic and its pitfalls. Just keep trusting your gut and your blue thumbs and the force will be with you

Sincerely Lasse