Help on identifying cause of failed acclimation

[Biota_Marine Verified Sponsor]

How does oxygen from atmospheric air increase pH?

Aren't the fish bagged with pure oxygen?

Throughout transit the CO2 produced from the fish and O2 in the bag create a imbalance layer so you'll have it equalizing throughout transit (O2 into the water CO2 out until equalized). By the time the shipment arrives the mixture of CO2 and oxygen in the bag likely have a lower oxygen content than atmospheric so when exposed O2 essentially rushes into the water (happens much faster with surface agitation like an airstone) causing pH to increase and that conversion to happen.

In our case drip acclimation also dilutes the ammonia binder which essentially doubles the conversion of ammonium to ammonia.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I followed the seller's acclimation process exactly. Which was to float for 20-30 minutes with the lights off, release directly into the tank, and discard the bag water.

I assume you are correct that the salinity or other parameters were too different, and I should have given them a more gradual introduction.

If the seller had shipped you the fish at a lower salinity/specific gravity, then their process wouldn't work well. Your tank is at 1.023. If the fish in the bags were in less than 1.020 water, then that could result in a fatal acclimation shock due to the sudden rise. Fish can tolerate drops in salinity much better than they can a rise.

Here is an article I wrote on fish acclimation techniques:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/acclimation-methods.903/

 

[Malcontent]

Throughout transit the CO2 produced from the fish and O2 in the bag create a imbalance layer so you'll have it equalizing throughout transit (O2 into the water CO2 out until equalized). By the time the shipment arrives the mixture of CO2 and oxygen in the bag likely have a lower oxygen content than atmospheric so when exposed O2 essentially rushes into the water (happens much faster with surface agitation like an airstone) causing pH to increase and that conversion to happen.

In our case drip acclimation also dilutes the ammonia binder which essentially doubles the conversion of ammonium to ammonia.

I don't think that's the case:

Recent developments and improvements in ornamental fish packaging systems for air transport

Also, ammonia binders don't work...

 

[Jarob]

If the seller had shipped you the fish at a lower salinity/specific gravity, then their process wouldn't work well. Your tank is at 1.023. If the fish in the bags were in less than 1.020 water, then that could result in a fatal acclimation shock due to the sudden rise. Fish can tolerate drops in salinity much better than they can a rise.

Here is an article I wrote on fish acclimation techniques:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/acclimation-methods.903/

Not disagreeing with you, just not what we are being told to do directly from the reputable sellers. Also FWIW I've always followed your article specifically for acclimation and never had an issue so thank you for providing it! Its so simple and straightforward.

Low Salinity in some fish bags (For Fish Only)​

1. We generally ship fish at sg 1.023-26, in some fragile fish we do ship at much lower salinity at 1.018.
2. In case of low salinty, release all fish in a bucket, let them rest for 15 to 20 min for ambient air to interact with the water raising the pH slowly. After 15-20 pH should be balanced, then scoop them out and release in your tank keeping lights off. Do not worry about matching salinity.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Not disagreeing with you, just not what we are being told to do directly from the reputable sellers. Also FWIW I've always followed your article specifically for acclimation and never had an issue so thank you for providing it! Its so simple and straightforward.

Low Salinity in some fish bags (For Fish Only)​

1. We generally ship fish at sg 1.023-26, in some fragile fish we do ship at much lower salinity at 1.018.
2. In case of low salinty, release all fish in a bucket, let them rest for 15 to 20 min for ambient air to interact with the water raising the pH slowly. After 15-20 pH should be balanced, then scoop them out and release in your tank keeping lights off. Do not worry about matching salinity.

They are dead wrong with this statement: "Do not worry about matching salinity."

A rise from shipping water to the receiving tank of more than .003 specific gravity units is going to be very stressful and more than that will begin to cause mortality, especially in smaller fishes. So - if they ship you fish at 1.018, and your tank is at 1.025, that would be a rise of .007 SG units - way too much of a rise!

For fish shipped long distances, with a lot of ammonia in the shipping water, the best way to acclimate is to match the receiving water to the shipping water for pH, salinity and temperature (least important of the three though). Then, move the fish over and acclimate the pH and salinity up slowly to match your tank.

 

[Luminous74]

.

 

[Evensong]

If the seller had shipped you the fish at a lower salinity/specific gravity, then their process wouldn't work well. Your tank is at 1.023. If the fish in the bags were in less than 1.020 water, then that could result in a fatal acclimation shock due to the sudden rise. Fish can tolerate drops in salinity much better than they can a rise.

Here is an article I wrote on fish acclimation techniques:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/acclimation-methods.903/

Appreciate the input, Jay! I just read your article that you linked, and it was very helpful.

 

[Biota_Marine Verified Sponsor]

I don't think that's the case:

Recent developments and improvements in ornamental fish packaging systems for air transport

Also, ammonia binders don't work...

To reference that same paper:

Ammonia binders do work and are often used by many in the industry. We've used both zeolite, prime, and stress guard over the years.

Gas exchange is still occuring even with oversaturation. The math in the paper is different than what we deal with because saltwater has much less space for more oxygen when compared with freshwater. CO2 is being produced by the fish lowering pH and gas exchange is occuring with the Oxygen in the bag.

I would argue the most important factor is probably temperature though.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

pH, salinity and temperature (least important of the three though)

I would argue the most important factor is probably temperature though.

I'm curious what the facts are that might help mediate this difference of claims.

prime,

FWIW, Prime will do nothing useful to elevated ammonia. Actual tests as opposed to marketing claims show no benefit.

Same for these claims.

 

[Fish Fan]

While some ammonia binding products do work, Prime is thought (here at R2R) to be ineffective for ammonia based on the work done here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...prime-cloram-x-rongalite-and-friends.1064206/

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I'm curious what the facts are that might help mediate this difference of claims.




Same for these claims.

Temperature is the least important value to acclimate for.

After ammonia mitigation and dissolved gas control, salinity is the most important then pH and then temperature.

Fisheries biologists don’t acclimate for temperature when moving fish unless the difference is more than 8 to 10 degrees F.

I once saw a damselfish guarding its nest in the Galapagos right at the thermocline. Each time a wave passed overhead the water temperature went up and down by over 10 degrees. Both the fish and its eggs were fine.

The most important factor is to maintain water temperature during shipping that is well within the survival range for that species.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Throughout transit the CO2 produced from the fish and O2 in the bag create a imbalance layer so you'll have it equalizing throughout transit (O2 into the water CO2 out until equalized). By the time the shipment arrives the mixture of CO2 and oxygen in the bag likely have a lower oxygen content than atmospheric so when exposed O2 essentially rushes into the water (happens much faster with surface agitation like an airstone) causing pH to increase and that conversion to happen.

In our case drip acclimation also dilutes the ammonia binder which essentially doubles the conversion of ammonium to ammonia.

I need to correct some things here. I’ll get to the ammonia binder issue subsequently, but I’ll address the pH issue here.

The pH has nothing at all to do with O2 levels. It is totally related to CO2 levels. So the process of the excess CO2 leaving the water to the newly exposed lower CO2 atmosphere is what boosts pH. Whether O2 enters or leaves or does nothing on opening the bag is not important for the pH change. That is a perfectly valid reason to not drip acclimate. The rising pH greatly increases the effective NH3 concentration.

 

[Malcontent]

To reference that same paper:

Ammonia binders do work and are often used by many in the industry. We've used both zeolite, prime, and stress guard over the years.

Gas exchange is still occuring even with oversaturation. The math in the paper is different than what we deal with because saltwater has much less space for more oxygen when compared with freshwater. CO2 is being produced by the fish lowering pH and gas exchange is occuring with the Oxygen in the bag.

I would argue the most important factor is probably temperature though.

You used zeolite in saltwater?

Saltwater holds roughly 20% less oxygen than freshwater. That's not going to make the difference between a shipment arriving supersaturated or not.

 

[Boehmtown]

I feel like salinity is important to match. You can poke a small pin hole in the bottom. Letting some water escape into a cup to test salinity, pinch off so no air enters the shipping bag. Figure out what the salinity is and if it's a good bit off. I either get it close within half hour, you can lock up ammonia with a drop of prime. Or if it's too big. Make up a gallon of water with the shipping bag salinity. Dump it into the fresh made water and acclimate from there.

But if it's expensive enough, I'll throw it in from the sidewalk as long as they are paying if they are wrong

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ammonia binders do work and are often used by many in the industry. We've used both zeolite, prime, and stress guard over the years.

Gas exchange is still occuring even with oversaturation. The math in the paper is different than what we deal with because saltwater has much less space for more oxygen when compared with freshwater. CO2 is being produced by the fish lowering pH and gas exchange is occuring with the Oxygen in the bag.

I would argue the most important factor is probably temperature though.

I think the evidence is very clear that the chemicals in binders such as Prime do not do what Seachem claims, and do not lower the concentration of NH3, even when tested exactly the way Seachem claims shows they supposedly work. The studies are very extensive and convincing, and are recorded at Reef2Reef in great detail.

Yes, the solid zeolite clinoptilolite will bind some. No one disputes that. But those solids are totally different sorts of entities and are not what are used in shipping bags.

I do not doubt that many people using these binders think they work, when in reality I suspect ammonia is just far less toxic than they assumed. When the fish survives 5 ppm ammonia, they attribute that success to the binder, rather than
misunderstood LD50 values.

As noted below, perhaps some folks use doses massively higher than bottle labels and get some binding from the chlor-am-X types of binders, but the needed doses are super high.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Here are two detailed study threads on ammonia binders:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...prime-cloram-x-rongalite-and-friends.1064206/

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Hopefully this question is within the range of usefulness of the OP:

@Jay Hemdal , in your linked article you mention "lowering the pH with the addition of a proper amount of acid (Sodium phosphate monobasic, carbon dioxide or other acids have been used)". Is there a formula/recipe for some simple to use acid that gets us in the ballpark of amount of acid per unit of pH per volume of water?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hopefully this question is within the range of usefulness of the OP:

@Jay Hemdal , in your linked article you mention "lowering the pH with the addition of a proper amount of acid (Sodium phosphate monobasic, carbon dioxide or other acids have been used)". Is there a formula/recipe for some simple to use acid that gets us in the ballpark of amount of acid per unit of pH per volume of water?

Not that I know of - it depends on the starting pH and alkalinity of the source water. Many times I’ve overshot and gone too low.

 

[Evensong]

Hopefully this question is within the range of usefulness of the OP:

Have at it, friend. I'm just trying to learn anything I can to do better next time.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Have at it, friend. I'm just trying to learn anything I can to do better next time.

I figured so, but I didn't want to imply that my concerns should get in the way of yours.