Help on strategy to RAISE phosphates and nitrates

[Charterreefer]

To maintain a consistent level reliably you would probably have to dose with a peristaltic pump type of arrangement. People that use fish feeding to add PO4 have the same up and down results.
I have been only dosing once a day and have had no ill effects.
You could split the dose and add half in morning and half in the early evening.

 

[Reef Jeff]

You have to determine how much PO4 your tank is consuming each day and then dose daily to get it to a stable level between doses. Start by dosing the same amount you have been. Wait an hour and test level to confirm you are at the level you want to maintain (see comment in last paragraph about setting a conservative target). Repeat until you are at target level, then wait 12 hours and test again. Any change? If so how much? Test in another 12 hours. What is the change? Add the change from the first 12 hour test to the last 12 hour test to get an estimate of amount consumed in 1 day. Calculate how much PO4 dose it would take to make up that consumed amount. Dose that full amount now to get back to target and then start dosing 1/2 that amount every 12 hours. You can adjust the times to dose 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 at night. Test daily to see if level is going up or down and adjust dose to keep it stable. Once stable, test 2xs a week and if it remains stable switch to once a week.

It is hard to know how your tank will react long term or if you need to keep dosing. Things change as the tank changes. Adjust as needed. With PO4 you have to wonder if the tank is using the PO4 in biological processes or if it is binding to substrate or rockwork. You really can't determine this for certain so best to keep it at a conservative target. I think you said you plan to shoot for .05. That would be fine or you could even be a little more conservative...you can observe your corals to tell if they need a little more. I would not shoot for higher levels like I run in this case because if it is binding, which I suspect it is, it will eventually stabilize at your target level. The bound reserve will keep it there for longer periods and you will be able to reduce or stop dosing. As the water column gets depleted of PO4, the theory is the bound PO4 will release to stay in balance with the water. I can't prove this scientifically, but anecdotally, this is what I have observed in many tanks over the years.

Don't forget about NO3...keep that at a stable and don't let it get to zero either.

 

[Cire]

Appreciate the strategy. Any comments on the following are appreciated.

2-2 AM PO4 = 0ppm added 1.5ml NeoPhos

2-2 PM PO4 = 0ppm +1.5ml NeoPhos

2-3 AM PO4 = 2ppm +1.5ml NeoPhos

2-4 AM PO4 = 0ppm +1.5ml NeoPhos

2-5 AM PO4 = 1ppm +1.5 ml NeoPhos

2-5 AM (one hour after prior reading) PO4 = 12ppm

2-5 PM PO4 = 3 ppm

2-6 AM PO4 = 16ppm

Scratching my head re: the most recent data (2-5 and 2-6). I added 1.5ml NeoPhos on 2-5 and tested an hour later to show an increase in
11ppm. Then I tested that night to show a reading of 3ppm or a decrease over the day of 8ppm. Assumed this would continue and the next morning I would bottom out at 0. Rather, the PO4 was at 16ppm. That’s without any dosing. Would love to know anyone’s thoughts here.

 

[Charterreefer]

Those high #'s looks erroneous to me. What are you using to measure your PO4 with? When you get a large number do you take another reading right away to double check? Whenever I get a large (unbelievable) number I take a second reading right away. Make sure your cuvette is very clean, you mix for the time stated on instructions and that no particles are suspended in the solution to be measured.
Just curious...What is your NO3 level currently?

 

[Charterreefer]

Is that 2 ppm or o.o2ppm PO4?

 

[HolisticBear]

Make sure your cuvette is very clean, you mix for the time stated on instructions and that no particles are suspended in the solution to be measured

+1

I clean my cuvettes in either H202 or Vinegar semi-regularly. If you are using the wax paper method to pour the powder, replace the wax paper.

 

[Charterreefer]

+1

I clean my cuvettes in either H202 or Vinegar semi-regularly. If you are using the wax paper method to pour the powder, replace the wax paper.

FYI: I simple test tube brush is indispensable for cuvettes, it adds a mechanical action to scrub the inside scum that rinsing with liquids alone won't get.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Your numbers have me freaked out. I too would like to know what Test kit you are using for PO4. I sincerely hope you mean .02 for 2 ppm and .16 for 16 ppm, and so forth.

I'm going to assume that's the case. What you are seeing is a little odd and most likely some testing procedure issues. The speed of biological consumption and binding of phosphate to surfaces can both cause variances in the numbers too so a combination of factors may be playing out here. Remember that hobby test kits are not an exact science making this a bit harder to see clear patterns. I would only use Red Sea or Hanna tests for this precise testing.

Initially consumption will be high like you saw when you dropped to zero from one 12 hour period to the next. Testing an hour after dosing will alway be highest while testing 12 hours later will show a drop so this is comparing apples and oranges. Once you reach a point where biological uptake and binding have reached saturation, you will see a spike in PO4 when you dose the same amount as before and the level will climb. Your spike to .16 MIGHT indicate that is what had happened. No biggie...stop dosing and restest in another 12 hours and see where you are. Report back so we can advise what to do next. I suspect you have caught up to consumption and it's now time to cut down on the dose to start to stabilize.

 

[Cire]

Those high #'s looks erroneous to me. What are you using to measure your PO4 with? When you get a large number do you take another reading right away to double check? Whenever I get a large (unbelievable) number I take a second reading right away. Make sure your cuvette is very clean, you mix for the time stated on instructions and that no particles are suspended in the solution to be measured.
Just curious...What is your NO3 level currently?

I always recheck with another sample. I mix thoroughly. Clean the cuvette each time. Anal about it really. These numbers are real.

 

[Cire]

Is that 2 ppm or o.o2ppm PO4?

Hanna checker Ultra low. 2 equates to about 1ppm. 16 would be .05 ppm. These numbers are real. Double checked.

 

[Cire]

Hanna checker Ultra low. 2 equates to about 1ppm. 16 would be .05 ppm. These numbers are real. Double checked.

Meant to say a “2” on the checker equates to a “.01” and so on. Apologize for the typo. Thanks for everyone’s comments.

 

[Cire]

Your numbers have me freaked out. I too would like to know what Test kit you are using for PO4. I sincerely hope you mean .02 for 2 ppm and .16 for 16 ppm, and so forth.

I'm going to assume that's the case. What you are seeing is a little odd and most likely some testing procedure issues. The speed of biological consumption and binding of phosphate to surfaces can both cause variances in the numbers too so a combination of factors may be playing out here. Remember that hobby test kits are not an exact science making this a bit harder to see clear patterns. I would only use Red Sea or Hanna tests for this precise testing.

Initially consumption will be high like you saw when you dropped to zero from one 12 hour period to the next. Testing an hour after dosing will alway be highest while testing 12 hours later will show a drop so this is comparing apples and oranges. Once you reach a point where biological uptake and binding have reached saturation, you will see a spike in PO4 when you dose the same amount as before and the level will climb. Your spike to .16 MIGHT indicate that is what had happened. No biggie...stop dosing and restest in another 12 hours and see where you are. Report back so we can advise what to do next. I suspect you have caught up to consumption and it's now time to cut down on the dose to start to stabilize.

Going to be a couple of days until I can retest as I’ve had to take a biz trip. Needless to say after the readings this morning exceeding last night’s reading I didn’t dose any NeoPhos. I will be back Friday and it will be interesting to see where things are what with just normal feeding. The good news is that I’m cleaning the glass more regularly now as opposed to when I had depleted the system of nutrients.

 

[Charterreefer]

That could just be your meter error at higher ppm. o.o5ppm is ok if it comes back down soon afterwards. I've seen high #'s with my Hanna to only to get a number more believable several hours later.
What's your NO3 at?

 

[Charterreefer]

That high number could actually be meter error. I've seen the same type of high number on my Hannah meter only to have it go back to a more believable number a couple hours later. 05 part per million is not that bad and nothing to get alarmed about especially if it comes down soon afterwards.

 

[cracker]

Hello Cire , Iv'e had to dose both No3 & Po4 regular for over a month now.

 

[Cire]

Another update. I’ve been regularly dosing PO4. Keeping it within a detectable range. NO3 has been holding at 5. Monti is covered in algae. Some small red polyps, but no color coming back en masse. I’m supposing now that it’s a lost cause. Hammer coral still losing heads. Polyps are detaching and falling my off. Today I noticed my torch coral has also now lost a head. This is a new (and sad occurrence). Have checked all other parameters regularly. MG 1350, CA 430, ALK averaging 8.6, salinity 1.026, PH avg 8.2, temp avg 80. No changes to lighting. No additives other than the NeoPhos. No noticeable pests except for asterina stars. I’ve not seen them on anything other than the occasional zoa with no ill affect to the zoa. Planning a big water change for tomorrow. That’s all I can think to do now. Little bummed but hopefully I’ll be able to figure out what I’ve done wrong in time and not repeat this mistake again.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Another update. I’ve been regularly dosing PO4. Keeping it within a detectable range. NO3 has been holding at 5. Monti is covered in algae. Some small red polyps, but no color coming back en masse. I’m supposing now that it’s a lost cause. Hammer coral still losing heads. Polyps are detaching and falling my off. Today I noticed my torch coral has also now lost a head. This is a new (and sad occurrence). Have checked all other parameters regularly. MG 1350, CA 430, ALK averaging 8.6, salinity 1.026, PH avg 8.2, temp avg 80. No changes to lighting. No additives other than the NeoPhos. No noticeable pests except for asterina stars. I’ve not seen them on anything other than the occasional zoa with no ill affect to the zoa. Planning a big water change for tomorrow. That’s all I can think to do now. Little bummed but hopefully I’ll be able to figure out what I’ve done wrong in time and not repeat this mistake again.

Dang! Sorry to read that. Have you had an ICP test done? There might be something else in the water you haven't been aware of. This sucks. I know firsthand.

 

[Charterreefer]

Hang in there! What you are observing with your corals currently could have been caused a long time ago. I think that is one of the aspects of this hobby that drive many people away...the effects of what is happening in your tank today i.e lighting, nutrients, temp, alk etc, might not be noticed for quite a while. That's when a lot of folks start chasing their tails and sometimes make matters even worse! What were your parameters a month ago?
That's why it is important to keep a log and record as many parameters as you can. It will help you figure out cause and effect.

Be patient and try to figure out and learn from your experience. It will help getting everything dialed in in the future. I was doing this for many years before I was happy with my system. I went through bouts of excruciating pain along the way. I think anyone that has been in this hobby for any length of time has gone through their share. Learning from it is key. I'm sure that the challenge of it is what piqued your interest.

Another note: Sps coral like very low nutrients while lps (hammer etc) like it higher, lps also like a different (higher) alkalinity too. Which one do you want to make happier? I focus on my sps and let the lps take their lumps.
I hope this helps you.

 

[Ferrell]

Excellent read. I too am experiencing the 0/0 syndrome. Although I’ve only ever run socks and skimmer I think my oversized skimmer is stripping too much. Have it tuned down to dry skim and taking it slow to increase NO3 and PO4
Will take advice and be proactive in the future

 

[Cire]

Brief update for the thread readers/contributors. More details to come. Things have turned around considerably. I made a concerted effort to go back and chart as much relevant data as possible (thanks to apex). Was able to map out my PO4 dosing as well as water change schedule. With PO4 there were erratic results as I was learning my tank’s consumption. Once I dialed it in and dosed the same amount each day to give me a stable and healthy (yet in range) level of PO4, things stabilized. For me, this was 1ml daily split into am and pm doses of .5ml. This gives me about .02 ppm PO4 at any given time. In addition, I noticed troubling trends with my water change schedule. Won’t bore anyone with the numbers. Truth be told I’ve always changed the water out regularly but I did change my regimen from 5gal weekly to 15gal every 12-13 days or so. Noticed that my monti issue coincided with GFO increase AND the longest time in between water changes (which was about 24 days). So, I did a massive water change, and have gone back to a very regular schedule.

This has caused a massive turn around. To my utter shock (despite my local LFS owner claiming it could happen), my monti has exploded back to life. This is after being bone white and then covered in algae. Now it’s not all the way back by any means. Still plenty of algae. However 15% of the surface is as bright as it ever was.

With regards to the polyp bailout on the hammer/torch. This has stopped. The hammer took the brunt of it. Slowly but surely heads that were adjacent to the affected heads also started to bail. Couldn’t stop it even once I’d started dosing predictably. Finally I dragged the piece to separate affected polyps from healthy. Since doing this nothing more has been affected. Almost as if polyp bailout is an infection of sorts that works its way through a colony. However my torch (which had one branch die to bailout) was NOT fragged. It had grown too far into a rock making it impossible to take out. It has yet to have another affected polyp. So that throws a wrench in my bacteria theory.

Anyway, I’m cautiously pleased with the progress. I know it seems simple (dealing with low nutrients) and maybe it really is. However knowing your tank obviously takes time and you don’t always get the intended consequences. Time will tell if I’m on the right track but at the moment things are looking much much better.