Help please! Frag tank crashed and cannot be recovered

CoralB

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Hi Friends,

My frag tank is a 20 gallon all in one. Fully cycled since 2020. I had a fairy wrasse in there along with some snails and emerald crabs and probably 30 frags. Last week, I heard a splash and saw that my Fairy Wrasse jumped out of the tank (yes I know, fish jump and I should have a cover). I put him back in and noticed he was having trouble breathing so I got him out of the tank and but him in my display tank so I could run some tests. Results:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
Calcium, Mag, Alk all normal.

After the tests, I noticed the crabs moving very slow or not at all so I removed all the inverts as well. I did a 25% water change and waited overnight.

The next day I notice my corals starting to lose color and retract so I tested parameters again. Nothing unusual. I put a hermit crab in the tank to see if the water was ok and within 5 minutes he had managed to climb his way out of the tank. I removed all the corals and gave them a coral bath and put them in the display tank. Performed a 90% water change. Waited 24 hours and tested the parameters again, nothing unusual. Put in the Hermit crab again and same results, he is climbing out of the tank. Performed another 90% water change. Waited 24 hours and tested the parameters again, nothing unusual. Put in the Hermit crab again and same results, he is climbing out of the tank.

So here I am completely clueless as to what is crashing my tank.

Are there any tests I have missed? Has anyone ever heard of this happening after 2 90% water changes? I fear I will have to tear down the whole tank, wash everything and start a new cycle.

Any advice or questions for me before I tear apart the tank?

Appreciate your support.
What test kit are you using for testing ammonia as some test kits are inaccurate, also was anything sprayed near or around the tank ??, did you have a pest control person in your house recently ??
 

charles7

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Maybe you still aren’t understanding.

It is a perfectly fine idea to suggest metal toxicity. No one is asking you to suggest the specific metals, although one could. We do know what metals are a concern for corals.

Im just trying to help you and others disentangle what you meant from the confusing way your wrote it by calling metals “tds”.

Tds is not ever any sort of suitable indicator of toxicity. Some metals, such as copper, are toxic at levels well below what a typical tds meter can detect. Some metals may be bound to organics in a way that they would not even show up on a tds meter (tin heat stabilizers in plastic , for example, can fit that). Normal seawater contains 35,000 ppm TDS and corals thrive in it.
The guy asking check for copper below you is the exact reason i said something. I asked for an expert and i got you…. shooting down an idea because it doesnt fit yours…. Arguing over a simple idea to which i asked him to do NOTHING to his tank. I didnt tell him to take drastic measures and simply brought up an idea. Just because you joined in 2014 id consider older members with more knowledge but trying to shut down an idea for no reason ruins your credibility.

As for tds, certain metals with negative side affect can ruin corals as i stated. There is also an absorption status, if you take only beneficial metals or anything that goes into tds and bump it to 1000 ppm it doesnt matter whether everything is in acceptable ranges, shrimp for some reason are overwhelmed and it created an environment where they cant live. Id imagine that all creates share a somewhat similar balance. Ya know like how us drinking to much water can kill us :) too much of a good thing is almost aways bad whether you say so or not. So he can check his tds and ya know if could be through the roof or super low. He can also take away that some of that may be from magnets and can check those as well for an signs of rust. Remove it and see if things improve over time with water changes.

Anyways im done with this whole situation with you and i wish luck to the guy or gal with the tank.
 

MnFish1

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I would suggest:

1. Activated carbon.
2. Increased oxygenation
3. Something like polysorb.
4. An ICP test
5. Did anyone spray insecticide, etc outside or any other chemicals that may have gotten into the tank?
6. A copper test would be a quick one you could do yourself

Are you sure your ammonia tests are accurate'? How long have you had the tank set up? Can you think of anything else you did just before the wrasse jumped - and things started looking bad?
 

arking_mark

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The guy asking check for copper below you is the exact reason i said something. I asked for an expert and i got you…. shooting down an idea because it doesnt fit yours…. Arguing over a simple idea to which i asked him to do NOTHING to his tank. I didnt tell him to take drastic measures and simply brought up an idea. Just because you joined in 2014 id consider older members with more knowledge but trying to shut down an idea for no reason ruins your credibility.

As for tds, certain metals with negative side affect can ruin corals as i stated. There is also an absorption status, if you take only beneficial metals or anything that goes into tds and bump it to 1000 ppm it doesnt matter whether everything is in acceptable ranges, shrimp for some reason are overwhelmed and it created an environment where they cant live. Id imagine that all creates share a somewhat similar balance. Ya know like how us drinking to much water can kill us :) too much of a good thing is almost aways bad whether you say so or not. So he can check his tds and ya know if could be through the roof or super low. He can also take away that some of that may be from magnets and can check those as well for an signsof rust. Remove it and see if things improve over time with water changes.

Anyways im done with this whole situation with you and i wish luck to the guy or gal with the tank.

Simply stated TDS measurements are mostly meaningless in a saltwater tank as it doesn’t differentiate anything.

TDS measurements are useful for RODI where you're looking for 0 and other pure mixtures where you are looking for a particular concentration.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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The guy asking check for copper below you is the exact reason i said something. I asked for an expert and i got you…. shooting down an idea because it doesnt fit yours…. Arguing over a simple idea to which i asked him to do NOTHING to his tank. I didnt tell him to take drastic measures and simply brought up an idea. Just because you joined in 2014 id consider older members with more knowledge but trying to shut down an idea for no reason ruins your credibility.

As for tds, certain metals with negative side affect can ruin corals as i stated. There is also an absorption status, if you take only beneficial metals or anything that goes into tds and bump it to 1000 ppm it doesnt matter whether everything is in acceptable ranges, shrimp for some reason are overwhelmed and it created an environment where they cant live. Id imagine that all creates share a somewhat similar balance. Ya know like how us drinking to much water can kill us :) too much of a good thing is almost aways bad whether you say so or not. So he can check his tds and ya know if could be through the roof or super low. He can also take away that some of that may be from magnets and can check those as well for an signs of rust. Remove it and see if things improve over time with water changes.

Anyways im done with this whole situation with you and i wish luck to the guy or gal with the tank.

Thank you for your participation in my expert chemistry forum, and pointing out that metal toxicity can be a concern here. All input is appreciated. It is my job, however, to make sure that what’s listed is accurate and interpretable by readers.

I have written several articles on metal toxicity in reef tanks. Never once did I suggest metal toxicity was not a possible concern here, and you comments about “my ideas” are misguided at best. Metals may well be the explantation. Thank you for suggesting it.
 

CoralB

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Yes, i know what tds is and i also keep shrimp where tds matters a whole lot more. Tds is total dissolved solids and unpure magnets consisting of more than iron can harbor a lot of nasty metals that can show up on tds and be detrimental. From what ive read iron isnt a big problem but if it has other metals ya know…. Im not an expert if it bothers saltwater but you go up 50 for shrimp and you can potentially wipe the babies first then the adults a week or two when they cant molt properly and die.
Huh??.
 

arking_mark

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The guy asking check for copper below you is the exact reason i said something. I asked for an expert and i got you…. shooting down an idea because it doesnt fit yours…. Arguing over a simple idea to which i asked him to do NOTHING to his tank. I didnt tell him to take drastic measures and simply brought up an idea. Just because you joined in 2014 id consider older members with more knowledge but trying to shut down an idea for no reason ruins your credibility.

As for tds, certain metals with negative side affect can ruin corals as i stated. There is also an absorption status, if you take only beneficial metals or anything that goes into tds and bump it to 1000 ppm it doesnt matter whether everything is in acceptable ranges, shrimp for some reason are overwhelmed and it created an environment where they cant live. Id imagine that all creates share a somewhat similar balance. Ya know like how us drinking to much water can kill us :) too much of a good thing is almost aways bad whether you say so or not. So he can check his tds and ya know if could be through the roof or super low. He can also take away that some of that may be from magnets and can check those as well for an signs of rust. Remove it and see if things improve over time with water changes.

Anyways im done with this whole situation with you and i wish luck to the guy or gal with the tank.
Also no better expert than Randy whom this forum bares his nane.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Ya know like how us drinking to much water can kill us :) too much of a good thing is almost aways bad whether you say so or not. So he can check his tds and ya know if could be through the roof or super low.

Do not put false words in my mouth to try to defend your clear misunderstanding tds.
 

MnFish1

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Cant tds affect coral and inverts? Maybe a magnet leeching something other than iron? I have a 20L frag tank so im interested as well. Something could be rusting although in forums people go back and forth, i do feel that in smaller systems like ours, its much more of an issue.
TDS in RODI top-off water thats constantly higher than 0 - can potentially be adding 'toxins' into the tank. It could also be adding 'calcium' into the tank (it depends on whats in the tap water). If one sees a high TDS in their RODI unit - they should evaluate that situation.

TDS itself does not affect corals and inverts. Thats the simple answer to your question.

Of course - something breaking down in a tank - a copper wire, etc etc - could cause increased metal levels - but that has nothing to do with TDS. Perhaps the point is - the OP should be looking at potential areas where toxins of any kind are entering (or already in the tank - or low oxygen levels. Or something like Hydrogen sulfide - if he has an anaerobic area that got disturbed somehow.
 

MnFish1

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@charles7 said: "Ya know like how us drinking to much water can kill us :) too much of a good thing is almost aways bad whether you say so or not. So he can check his tds and ya know if could be through the roof or super low."

If what you're really trying to say is 'could the specific gravity be off' - that is something that no one mentioned. You cannot easily measure TDS in a display tank - but you can measure specific gravity - which would be the same (basically). Often times problems in tanks DO relate to specific gravity but not the TDS of the water in the tank per se. Perhaps this is why you're getting a little push back on your comment - which frankly - as everyone has said did not make complete sense (i.e. mentioning TDS). I'm not trying to debate you - just trying to explain that the term TDS that you used is not going to be understood in any meaningful way in a reef-type tank. Best wishes - welcome to R2R
 

CoralB

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Thank you for your participation in my expert chemistry forum, and pointing out that metal toxicity can be a concern here. All input is appreciated. It is my job, however, to make sure that what’s listed is accurate and interpretable by readers.

I have written several articles on metal toxicity in reef tanks. Never once did I suggest metal toxicity was not a possible concern here, and you comments about “my ideas” are misguided at best. Metals may well be the explantation. Thank you for suggesting it.
Randy you don’t need to defend yourself here, your credibility is not in jeopardy or questioned . Thank you for all help you’ve given in this group . And I will say especially from this and other threads that I’ve seen you’ve always seem to present yourself in a professional manner and have in my option way more patience then I would .
 
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charles7

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TDS in RODI top-off water thats constantly higher than 0 - can potentially be adding 'toxins' into the tank. It could also be adding 'calcium' into the tank (it depends on whats in the tap water). If one sees a high TDS in their RODI unit - they should evaluate that situation.

TDS itself does not affect corals and inverts. Thats the simple answer to your question.

Of course - something breaking down in a tank - a copper wire, etc etc - could cause increased metal levels - but that has nothing to do with TDS. Perhaps the point is - the OP should be looking at potential areas where toxins of any kind are entering (or already in the tank - or low oxygen levels. Or something like Hydrogen sulfide - if he has an anaerobic area that got disturbed somehow.
Even if i say im done, of course ill read the rebuttal. U got me laughing with tds doesnt affect corals and inverts. Instead of relying on someone else especially after meeting you, i did the digging and reading. For someone who has been on r2r for so long you have got to be the most misinformed and argumentative person lol do any simple search and there are entire forums dedicated to this topic, research articles, and your face saying “nO tHaT iSnT rIGhT i DoNt bEliEve IN iT” you made my morning for sure. Its like talking to a petco employee about anything related to saltwater or reptiles at this point. Its priceless.
 

X-37B

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Even if i say im done, of course ill read the rebuttal. U got me laughing with tds doesnt affect corals and inverts. Instead of relying on someone else especially after meeting you, i did the digging and reading. For someone who has been on r2r for so long you have got to be the most misinformed and argumentative person lol do any simple search and there are entire forums dedicated to this topic, research articles, and your face saying “nO tHaT iSnT rIGhT i DoNt bEliEve IN iT” you made my morning for sure. Its like talking to a petco employee about anything related to saltwater or reptiles at this point. Its priceless.
Are you sure you dont work at petco. WOW!
 

Dburr1014

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Did the OP ever rule out leaking electricity?
Just because everything is on a gfci doesn't mean it could not happen.
I personally have had a bad pump that shocked me if I didn't have rubber soles on my feet. Everything was on a gfci and never tripped.
 

charles7

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How about I do this. For example nickel in magnets. If a few grams of nickel leaches off into a small tank like a 20 like me and him have. What happens then? Does it not actively raise tds. Why am i trying to explain anything. Now im getting heated over a band wagon
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Even if i say im done, of course ill read the rebuttal. U got me laughing with tds doesnt affect corals and inverts. Instead of relying on someone else especially after meeting you, i did the digging and reading. For someone who has been on r2r for so long you have got to be the most misinformed and argumentative person lol do any simple search and there are entire forums dedicated to this topic, research articles, and your face saying “nO tHaT iSnT rIGhT i DoNt bEliEve IN iT” you made my morning for sure. Its like talking to a petco employee about anything related to saltwater or reptiles at this point. Its priceless.

I glad to have made your morning.

Again, stop putting false words in my mouth. And the 2014 comments are also pretty misguided. I’ve never asked anyone to believe anything I say because of when I joined REEF2REEF. I can and will support anything I state with scientific discussion.

Argumentative? Definitely. Incorrect or confusing statements will NEVER be left alone in my forum. To paraphrase Churchill, we will never surrender.

If you truly believe I am the one who does not understand what tds is, perhaps you will want to peruse one of my articles titled

What is TDS? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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How about I do this. For example nickel in magnets. If a few grams of nickel leaches off into a small tank like a 20 like me and him have. What happens then? Does it not actively raise tds. Why am i trying to explain anything. Now im getting heated over a band wagon

A few grams of nickel will wipe the tank out.
Never does that happen in a reef tank that has ever been reported by icp (mg yes, grams, no).

Nevertheless, let’s explore your assertion. Let’s say 3 grams of nickel dissolved into 35 ppt seawater. What does that do to tds?

3 grams (3,000 mg) of nickel in 20 gallons (76 liters) is about 40 ppm.

So to look to the tds in your tank rising from 35,000 ppm tds to 35,040 ppm tds seems like a loosing proposition since evaporation will swing that number around by hundreds of ppm tds every day, and no method used by hobbyists can differentiate 35,000 ppm tds from 35,040 ppm tds, not to mention that is would have risen over days or weeks, and food add way more tds than that.
 
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\m/reefsnmetal\m/

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How about I do this. For example nickel in magnets. If a few grams of nickel leaches off into a small tank like a 20 like me and him have. What happens then? Does it not actively raise tds. Why am i trying to explain anything. Now im getting heated over a band w
You could try looking at it this way. Had OP stated that something is wrong in his tank and that his TDS has climbed 50 it wouldn't tell anyone anything that they could use to help him. They would start asking things like "what is your salinity, calcium, alk, mag?" or "have you dosed copper or how old is your equipment?". All of these things affect TDS as I'm sure you're aware. No one is saying that animals aren't at all affected by changes in TDS, just that the specific measurement doesn't provide adequate data to diagnose and address the underlying issue within the tank.
 

charles7

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A few grams of nickel will wipe the tank out.
Never does that happen in a reef tank that has ever been reported by icp (mg yes, grams, no).

Nevertheless, let’s explore your assertion. Let’s say 3 grams of nickel dissolved into 35 ppt seawater. What does that do to tds?

3 grams (3,000 mg) of nickel in 20 gallons (76 liters) is about 40 ppm.

So to look to the tds in your tank rising from 35,000 ppm tds to 35,040 ppm tds seems like a loosing proposition since evaporation will swing that number around by hundreds of ppm tds every day, and no method used by hobbyists can differentiate 35,000 ppm tds from 35,040 ppm tds, not to mention that is would have risen over days or weeks, and food add way more tds than that.
Yes we are getting to something. So 2 months ago roughly i got a big breed box if you will, used it for pebbles and mushroom propagation. A couple weeks later my euphyllia is half receded like at night time, acans are showing skeleton and zoas are half closed most of the time. Looks like a crash coming. I check all my instruments and find yellow and orange sludge coming out of a fairly large magnet. The box weighed a good 6-7 pounds with rock and some pressure with me testing the strength by pushing on it so it was a sturdy magnet. Whether we have to get fancy with instruments, mark lines on glads for evaporation or not. Those metals whatever was leached raised tds a bit. Far more than what would have wiped my shrimp tanks out in a week or two.

Now regardless of testing tds, we know it wouldve increased. Whether visible from a test, im not sure. I only test freshwater because death comes first with shrimp and corals show signs before death. I factor in those metals into tds which i do not think im wrong. It can be tested which like you stated with evaporation, depending on how close nit you keep up with measurements on a simple ato or black marker, its still there. I didnt test and instead ran daily water changes, removed the magnets and within a week the euphyllia was fully opened and now the tissue recession at the bases are coming back. To skew some bias, i ordered some amminos to dip, iodine, brightwell restore. Those were used after the euphyllia started fully opening again.

I understand youve written articles and hell your name is at the top left. I am stating my experience and what ive learned from keeping caridina shrimp that i have to test tds daily for and had my ups and downs with crashes (tank wipes) from 1 gallon water changes and forgetting to remineralize to 150 tds. As for corals i get visual cues and dont have to test, although it wont hurt to do so.
 

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You could try looking at it this way. Had OP stated that something is wrong in his tank and that his TDS has climbed 50 it wouldn't tell anyone anything that they could use to help him. They would start asking things like "what is your salinity, calcium, alk, mag?" or "have you dosed copper or how old is your equipment?". All of these things affect TDS as I'm sure you're aware. No one is saying that animals aren't at all affected by changes in TDS, just that the specific measurement doesn't provide adequate data to diagnose and address the underlying issue within the tank.
Something like this i wouldve enjoyed more than a shoot down. I just shot a message and i think it explains my pov much better and my experience with magnets and a potential crash.
 

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