HELP! Program and Install Apex with ATK and Icecap Kalk stirrer.

Vaporchasers

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Hello all, and thanks for stopping in to read and help if possible.

Just installed my first apex and I have most of it figured out, but The Kalk stirrer and solenoid valve programming is starting to scare me. I had to run my top off line through a couple of walls, so adding a second line and pump for the kalk stirrer is a LAST RESORT or maybe even not likely at all.

So here's what I'm looking at. My ATK is currently setup with a pmup and is fully operational with a siphon break. I plan to use solenoid valves with this install. I'm sorry in advance. I'm a self taught rookie that can't get Neptune on the phone and can't do all of this with them via e-mail.

Here is my current PMUP programming:
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATK_LO OPEN Then ON
If ATK_HI CLOSED Then OFF
If Output Maintenance = ON Then OFF
When On > 005:00 Then OFF
Defer 000:10 Then ON
Defer 000:10 Then OFF
Min Time 020:00 Then OFF

I plan to install the plumbing in accordance with this diagram. I have a 200 gallon heavily stocked system with lots of SPS (currently consuming 100ml of Carbo Cal each day) so i'm assuming it will use a decent amount of Kalk most if not ALL top off will process through the kalk stirrer, I could be mistaken). I'm hoping I have the correct plan, hopefully somebody can let me know if that is the case.

So, I would program the solenoid valves as follows:

SV1:
Fallback ON
If pH > 8.40 Then OFF
If pH < 8.30 Then ON

SV2:
Fallback OFF
If pH > 8.40 Then ON
If pH < 8.30 Then OFF

I have the kalk stirrer (Icecap 200) plugged into my Energy Bar. I want the stirrer to have power 3-4 times a day for just a few minutes. I am confused about the programming here. Any suggestions would be helpful for this.

I would also like to add a setting to my pmup to NOT TURN ON if the kalk stirrer is mixing and instead differ top off until 5 minutes or so after a stir so that i'm not topping off while it is stirring. I'm very confused here.

Solenoid valve 2 is only a fallback in case the ph is elevated too high but the tank needs top off water. Maybe this is overkill, I'm open for critiques and suggested changes to my plan.

I've also thought that maybe I shouldn't push kalk through my atk and that it may eventually cause faults with the censors or float valves? I decided to plug it into the APK because it does have the mechanical float valves as a backup in case for some reason my solenoid valves fail. As another level of precaution the icecap is gravity drain from the top so it should never siphon out all of the kalk.

According to the Apex logs my PMUP currently comes on for about 1 minutes or less 2-3 times per hour. The top off reservoir is quite a distance away so the flow isn't very fast.

I'm beating my head against a wall trying to finish this, as this completes a tank i've spent the better part of this year putting together. That being said, Thank you for reading and for any help you provide.

124153773_3418592518188861_3602804204503956640_n.jpg
 

SuncrestReef

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Here's what I'd suggest. Use the OSC command to stir your kalk for 2 minutes every 6 hours. Create a virtual output named Kalk_Delay that will act as a timer each time you stir the kalk, and then refer to this virtual output in the PMUP program to prevent it from running while stirring and for the following 5 minutes.

Lastly, I'd recommend only checking the pH values on SV1, then have SV2 turn on and off based on the status of SV1. If you ever decide to change the pH range you're monitoring, this would only require you to change it in a single place, and avoid the possible error of having both solenoids on or off at the same time if you accidentally changed the pH on one different than the other.

Below is all the code, with the changes/additions shown in bold:

[Kalk_Stir] - EnergyBar output
Fallback OFF
OSC 000:00/002:00/358:00 Then ON


[SV1]
Fallback ON
If pH > 8.40 Then OFF
If pH < 8.30 Then ON

[SV2]
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Output SV1 = OFF Then ON

[Kalk_Delay]
- new virtual output
Set OFF
If Output Kalk_Stir = ON Then ON
Defer 005:00 Then OFF


[PMUP]
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATK_LO OPEN Then ON
If ATK_HI CLOSED Then OFF
If Output Maintenance = ON Then OFF
If Output Kalk_Delay = ON Then OFF
When On > 005:00 Then OFF
Defer 000:10 Then ON
Defer 000:10 Then OFF
Min Time 020:00 Then OFF

If you're not familiar with virtual outputs, see my tutorial here: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/neptune-apex-programming-tutorials-part-5-virtual-outputs.703/
 
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Vaporchasers

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Thank you so much, you have no idea how helpful this was. I read your previous apex instructional posts as well. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
 
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Vaporchasers

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@SuncrestReef so after running this for a week it works great, but I noticed having a Neptune solenoid on all of the time, the valve is warm.

Would it be better for the valves to be somehow closed unless the top off pump is on.... this may prevent premature failure of the valve? I’m unsure. I’m just asking this because of the warmth generated by the valve.

If so... how would you go about programming Sv1 and 2?

PS. The bypass valve RARELY opens and when it does it is because a localized spike in the sump that does not make drastic changes to the overall tank ph.
 

SuncrestReef

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@SuncrestReef so after running this for a week it works great, but I noticed having a Neptune solenoid on all of the time, the valve is warm.

Would it be better for the valves to be somehow closed unless the top off pump is on.... this may prevent premature failure of the valve? I’m unsure. I’m just asking this because of the warmth generated by the valve.

If so... how would you go about programming Sv1 and 2?

PS. The bypass valve RARELY opens and when it does it is because a localized spike in the sump that does not make drastic changes to the overall tank ph.


You could change it easily to only open the solenoids when the PMUP is running and the pH is in the correct range:
(changes shown in bold)

[Kalk_Stir] - EnergyBar output
Fallback OFF
OSC 000:00/002:00/358:00 Then ON

[SV1]
Fallback ON
If pH > 8.40 Then OFF
If pH < 8.30 Then ON
If Output PMUP = OFF Then OFF

[SV2]
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Output PMUP = ON Then ON
If Output SV1 = ON Then OFF

[Kalk_Delay] - new virtual output
Set OFF
If Output Kalk_Stir = ON Then ON
Defer 005:00 Then OFF

[PMUP]
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATK_LO OPEN Then ON
If ATK_HI CLOSED Then OFF
If Output Maintenance = ON Then OFF
If Output Kalk_Delay = ON Then OFF
When On > 005:00 Then OFF
Defer 000:10 Then ON
Defer 000:10 Then OFF
Min Time 020:00 Then OFF
 
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Vaporchasers

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So with the programming setup I ran into this issue today. If the PMUP is already on when the Kalk stirrer starts up it takes 10 seconds for the PMUP to turn off which causes the top layer of film in the Kalk reservoir to pump into the tank.
Is my only solution to make my virtual output on based on time so that it is turned on a minute or so BEFORE the stirrer kicks on?
 

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SuncrestReef

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So with the programming setup I ran into this issue today. If the PMUP is already on when the Kalk stirrer starts up it takes 10 seconds for the PMUP to turn off which causes the top layer of film in the Kalk reservoir to pump into the tank.
Is my only solution to make my virtual output on based on time so that it is turned on a minute or so BEFORE the stirrer kicks on?
The 10 second delay in turning off the PMUP is due to its Defer 000:10 Then OFF line. That line only exists as part of the default ATK programming which is intended to delay turning off the PMUP once water has reached the ATK_LO sensor, in case any ripples in the water might prematurely turn it off. However, with your situation, it causes more harm than good. For that reason, you can simply delete that line from the PMUP. If it ends up turning off 10 seconds prematurely, it can make up for that on the next run.

So, just use this:
(keep the Defer 000:10 Then ON, but get rid of the Defer 000:10 Then OFF)

[PMUP]
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATK_LO OPEN Then ON
If ATK_HI CLOSED Then OFF
If Output Maintenance = ON Then OFF
If Output Kalk_Delay = ON Then OFF
When On > 005:00 Then OFF
Defer 000:10 Then ON
Min Time 020:00 Then OFF
 

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