Help quarantine Threadfin Cardinals

[martin.a]

I messed up my ordering, and now I have 8 Threadfin Cardinals, Zoramia leptacantha (formerly Apogon leptacanthus), arriving on Tuesday or Wednesday next week. I need to quarantine all 8 of them.
The thing is... they are delicate, and I have never quarantined a fish before. Yes, I know what I did was wrong and stupid. I will go to hell for it, but please: can you help the fish?
I am cross-posting this on HumbleFish. Again, please beat me up, but help the fish.

Which quarantine protocol would you suggest? I can do copper or TTM (including hybrid). Copper seems somewhat more forgiving for an inexperienced handler.

I currently have:

• 80 L (20 G) AIO quarantine tank, already filled and running. A single goby currently lives in it under observation (the goby will move out before the cardinals arrive). The sintered-glass biomedia and sponge from this tank are currently in the sump of my main tank being seeded. This tank can be used for copper treatment.
• 20 L (5 G) plastic containers, heaters and air pumps for TTM, and enough floor space to actually do it.
• Copper Power
• Hanna Copper HR Checker (and other 'standard' checkers and water tests)
• PraziPro
• Hydrogen peroxide
• Formalin
• MetroPlex, KanaPlex and Focus should arrive within the next 14 days.
• I can get almost anything else if needed, but it may take some time.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I messed up my ordering, and now I have 8 Threadfin Cardinals, Zoramia leptacantha (formerly Apogon leptacanthus), arriving on Tuesday or Wednesday next week. I need to quarantine all 8 of them.
The thing is... they are delicate, and I have never quarantined a fish before. Yes, I know what I did was wrong and stupid. I will go to hell for it, but please: can you help the fish?
I am cross-posting this on HumbleFish. Again, please beat me up, but help the fish.

Which quarantine protocol would you suggest? I can do copper or TTM (including hybrid). Copper seems somewhat more forgiving for an inexperienced handler.

I currently have:

• 80 L (20 G) AIO quarantine tank, already filled and running. A single goby currently lives in it under observation (the goby will move out before the cardinals arrive). The sintered-glass biomedia and sponge from this tank are currently in the sump of my main tank being seeded. This tank can be used for copper treatment.
• 20 L (5 G) plastic containers, heaters and air pumps for TTM, and enough floor space to actually do it.
• Copper Power
• Hanna Copper HR Checker (and other 'standard' checkers and water tests)
• PraziPro
• Hydrogen peroxide
• Formalin
• MetroPlex, KanaPlex and Focus should arrive within the next 14 days.
• I can get almost anything else if needed, but it may take some time.

Yes, those are pretty delicate. Skip formalin and peroxide with those. Don’t use focus and ANY meds unless you calculate to dose properly.

The most important thing is to have a stable quarantine tank for them, with an operating biofilter. Setting up bins “on the fly” is going to work well. Depending on how long your media has been seeded, it may work.

Even modified TTM doesn’t work well on protozoans that have direct development (like Brooklynella and gill amoeba). It also doesn’t work well on flukes. The extra handling is rough on fish, something I’d avoid in this species.

I keep our updated quarantine protocol on the first page of this thread:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/

 

[vetteguy53081]

I messed up my ordering, and now I have 8 Threadfin Cardinals, Zoramia leptacantha (formerly Apogon leptacanthus), arriving on Tuesday or Wednesday next week. I need to quarantine all 8 of them.
The thing is... they are delicate, and I have never quarantined a fish before. Yes, I know what I did was wrong and stupid. I will go to hell for it, but please: can you help the fish?
I am cross-posting this on HumbleFish. Again, please beat me up, but help the fish.

Which quarantine protocol would you suggest? I can do copper or TTM (including hybrid). Copper seems somewhat more forgiving for an inexperienced handler.

I currently have:

• 80 L (20 G) AIO quarantine tank, already filled and running. A single goby currently lives in it under observation (the goby will move out before the cardinals arrive). The sintered-glass biomedia and sponge from this tank are currently in the sump of my main tank being seeded. This tank can be used for copper treatment.
• 20 L (5 G) plastic containers, heaters and air pumps for TTM, and enough floor space to actually do it.
• Copper Power
• Hanna Copper HR Checker (and other 'standard' checkers and water tests)
• PraziPro
• Hydrogen peroxide
• Formalin
• MetroPlex, KanaPlex and Focus should arrive within the next 14 days.
• I can get almost anything else if needed, but it may take some time.

A little over thinking here. Keep it simple. Jay already gave Good input

 

[martin.a]

Thanks, guys! So to confirm: Let them settle in and confirm that they are eating. Start 30-day copper following Jay's protocol 1, only once the fish are settled and the biofilter has been confirmed to be adequate, don't rush.
I suppose asking about post-copper treatment, such as praziquantel, is probably a bit premature at this stage.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks, guys! So to confirm: Let them settle in and confirm that they are eating. Start 30-day copper following Jay's protocol 1, only once the fish are settled and the biofilter has been confirmed to be adequate, don't rush.
I suppose asking about post-copper treatment, such as praziquantel, is probably a bit premature at this stage.

No - dont confirm they are eating , dont let then settle in, start copper immediately and the rest of the instructions. (would be my opinion)

 

[martin.a]

Thank you all for your input. I am all setup for copper treatment. It will be a slow start from 1ppm building up the concentration over several days. I keep fingers crossed the fish arrives in good condition. I will update once there is development.

 

[martin.a]

This is a cross-post from humble.fish. I'm only doing this on this occasion because I started the topic on both forums and used information from both communities to decide on the quarantine protocol. I'm certain I will need all the community support I can get as the quarantine progresses. (Unless I kill them all right away.)

Please advise how you think I should continue reporting on this, assuming it is of any interest. I don't want to create unnecessary duplicate posts on the two forums.

So, seven cardinals arrived yesterday (not the promised eight). All seven were in good shape, although two looked superficially a little weaker. Yesterday they were only acclimated, with no treatment. They formed a shoal in the darkest corner of the tank and refused frozen mysis.

This morning they readily accepted frozen mysis and seemed to be in generally good spirits, given the circumstances. I dosed Copper Power up to 1.25 ppm over about three hours. They showed no signs of stress and continued to accept mysis during the process. I will try frozen rotifers and Apocyclops pods later today to provide some variety.

Assuming everything is fine tomorrow morning, I will add another 0.25 ppm of copper.

I did hit one snag: my Hanna Copper Checker just died. (If there was going to be a death here, I gladly accept the checker.) I have ordered a new one, but for now I am dosing Copper Power by volume. I hope the replacement arrives before we reach 2 ppm, when precise measurement becomes more important.

Photos from today's morning:

 

[Daniel Doherty]

They’re delicate. I’ve ten coming soon. I would just keep in a quarantine tank and observe for 6 weeks. Run an oversized UV. Condition them well. Only do copper if it’s needed. This is what I’ll do, maybe a bit more of a European approach?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

This is a cross-post from humble.fish. I'm only doing this on this occasion because I started the topic on both forums and used information from both communities to decide on the quarantine protocol. I'm certain I will need all the community support I can get as the quarantine progresses. (Unless I kill them all right away.)

Please advise how you think I should continue reporting on this, assuming it is of any interest. I don't want to create unnecessary duplicate posts on the two forums.

How many of them have the caudal fin damage like the single one does in the photo? That may look minor, but it indicates some previous handling issues, and this species really needs to be perfect and pristine in order to thrive. Short supply chain is best for these, but tough to find.

 

[martin.a]

How many of them have the caudal fin damage like the single one does in the photo? That may look minor, but it indicates some previous handling issues, and this species really needs to be perfect and pristine in order to thrive. Short supply chain is best for these, but tough to find.

I am actually not sure. My eyesight is not good, and they are very shy. I am trying not to stress them by poking around.

But this one is no more:

I suspect this is the one from the earlier post, given the caudal fin damage. Belly is sunken, but I am not sure how it's supposed to look postmortem. I found it in the evening when I came back home.

When they arrived, one of the 7 seemed weaker and it stayed alone for w while. But joined the group within half an hour, and in the morning all were together. When I was feeding in the morning I could positively confirm 5 eating.

I fed again in the evening. Four were eating very aggressively darting through the tank, fifth was eating nicely, but clearly stayed in the back, I could not confirm that the last 2 1 ate. But possibly, I fed several times over 3 hours until they were not interested anymore. As a group they ate a lot.

I fed mysis mixed with rotifers and apocyclops. They targeted the mysis, of course, but it seemed that the presence of the plankton increased their feeding behavior.

Let's see what the morning brings.

 

[martin.a]

They’re delicate. I’ve ten coming soon. I would just keep in a quarantine tank and observe for 6 weeks. Run an oversized UV. Condition them well. Only do copper if it’s needed. This is what I’ll do, maybe a bit more of a European approach?

That's definitely an option. Fingers crossed. Running oversized UV is an European approach? Really?

 

[Daniel Doherty]

They’re delicate. I’ve ten coming soon. I would just keep in a quarantine tank and observe for 6 weeks. Run an oversized UV. Condition them well. Only do copper if it’s needed. This is what I’ll do, maybe a bit more of a European approach?

That's definitely an option. Fingers crossed. Running oversized UV is an European approach? Really?

Sorry not that part haha, but I think observation is used a lot more here, rather than just treating straight away.

 

[martin.a]

No more losses so far. I can now confirm that the deceased fish was the only one with damage to the caudal fin. All 6 are eating aggressively, darting after food. I increased copper by 0.25 ppm.

I had a silly scare this morning: I measured total ammonia with the Red Sea kit and got 0.2 ppm. I was still in my pre-morning-coffee state... so I kind of panicked and started preparing for an emergency water change, at the same time trying to work out what had gone wrong with my biofilter.

Of course, nothing went wrong. Copper affects the results from that test kit. I confirmed this by testing freshly mixed seawater with the same copper concentration and getting the same 0.2 ppm reading.

I now have a Seachem ammonia alert badge in the tank. (And it's showing 0.)

Shipping of the new Hanna checker got delayed. Using API copper test to at least confirm the ballpark.

 

[martin.a]

A short update, morning of day 3 with copper just raised to 1.75 ppm. This is already second feeding of the day (frozen mysis, half of a cube). They eat a lot.



Please let me know in case you see anything wrong with the fish. I will update when something significant happens.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

A short update, morning of day 3 with copper just raised to 1.75 ppm. This is already second feeding of the day (frozen mysis, half of a cube). They eat a lot.



Please let me know in case you see anything wrong with the fish. I will update when something significant happens.

Sorry, for some reason, I missed your later posts....

Looks good! Yes, amine chelated copper will give a false positive on API and some other copper tests. However, the badge tests are often inaccurate as well (reading zero when it isn't actually zero). Does your QT have a cycled biological filter? If not, I would continue to monitor ammonia with two different methods.

You should be up to full copper by now. The API test is actually quite accurate, but the color change is too difficult for most people to read. I used it with a spectrophotometer and found it to be "spot on" when read by that $6k machine (grin).

 

[martin.a]

Sorry, for some reason, I missed your later posts....

Looks good! Yes, amine chelated copper will give a false positive on API and some other copper tests. However, the badge tests are often inaccurate as well (reading zero when it isn't actually zero). Does your QT have a cycled biological filter? If not, I would continue to monitor ammonia with two different methods.

You should be up to full copper by now. The API test is actually quite accurate, but the color change is too difficult for most people to read. I used it with a spectrophotometer and found it to be "spot on" when read by that $6k machine (grin).

No worries, thanks!

After today's dose copper is 2.16 ppm. I was below the target before Hanna checker finally arrived. Tomorrow copper should reach over 2.4 ppm and the count will start. Target is 2.5 ppm, do I really need to go so high?

Yes, of course I have cycled media. Not all 'perfectly cycled', but there is a bunch of spheres which were in a sump since April, rest for 2 weeks. A lot of bacterial film started growing on anything plastic. Some green microalgae too. I dose FritzZyme 7 daily, just in case.

Fish seem happy. They eat a lot, play and stay together. Well, 5 always stay together, the 6th most of the time. It was like that from the beginning. (But this is a small 80 L tank.) I can't see any detrimental effect of the treatment so far. I stopped including rotifers in the feed. They now jump on the food the moment it hits the water. I feed with frozen mysis only. I am not sure if that's enough. They ignore pellets.

Fish seem 'shiny' now. I can't exactly explain... they seemed dull-gray when arrived week ago, now they... sparkle. But it may be all in me head ;-)

I could not help but notice that copepods settled in the tank. Fair number are gravid females. I have also seen a random amphipod. Isn't copper supposed to be unhealthy to inverts? Lot's of detritus and bacterial slime, so their help is welcome.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I would target 2,25 ppm for the copper, since they don't appear to have active protozoan disease.

Amine-chelated copper doesn't seem to be overly toxic to copepods and amphipods....

 

[martin.a]

I would target 2,25 ppm for the copper, since they don't appear to have active protozoan disease.

Amine-chelated copper doesn't seem to be overly toxic to copepods and amphipods....

Great, thanks!
Would be good to have pods. They may be apocyclops, so possibly even could be on the menu.