HELP! Tank crash? Inverts dying, coral stressed

[buruskeee]

Get a grip!

It’s just calcium carbonate though lol. May have helped who knows.

Ok so I have a video of the wrasse. But I don’t have a YouTube channel.

Here it is. Doing better but still struggling.

Still image for those not on PC:

 

[buruskeee]

And it’s back on the sand again with It’s color fading again. I shouldn’t try to capture it, correct?

 

[MnFish1]

This is extremely difficult to follow - with so many posts - to try to figure out 'what to do' with the fish. Could you click the link in my signature and answer the questions? Thanks - also pictures/videos under white light. BTW - I'm one of the fish medics - so not going to comment on the coral. Hopefully things start to improve.

 

[buruskeee]

This is extremely difficult to follow - with so many posts - to try to figure out 'what to do' with the fish. Could you click the link in my signature and answer the questions? Thanks - also pictures/videos under white light. BTW - I'm one of the fish medics - so not going to comment on the coral. Hopefully things start to improve.

Thank you for helping. I’m on mobile so I don’t see a signature.

Here is a video. Last 15 minutes again it’s been on the sand not swimming. I’m preparing a water change but it won’t be ready for another 3 hours. Salt is currently mixing. I just replaced the carbon.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you for helping. I’m on mobile so I don’t see a signature.

Here is a video. Last 15 minutes again it’s been on the sand not swimming. I’m preparing a water change but it won’t be ready for another 3 hours. Salt is currently mixing. I just replaced the carbon.

HOW TO ASK FOR DISEASE DIAGNOSIS HELP LINK
Unfortunately - I can't see the video

 

[buruskeee]

Unfortunately I’m too late. Water change wasn’t in time. Lost both my Wrasse and my smallest Bimac Anthias.

 

[buruskeee]

HOW TO ASK FOR DISEASE DIAGNOSIS HELP LINK
Unfortunately - I can't see the video

I'm not sure what's happening. Tank main parameters look fine.

Cycled end of August 2023 (dry rock/live sand)
150g system
34.5ppm salinity
Alk 8.3 (dosing 15ml AFR never outside of 8.0-8.5dKh)
Cal 430
Mag 1325
No3 8ppm (Hanna HR)
Po4 0.04ppm (Hanna ULR)
Temp 77.7F

All tested with trident, but double checked with Hanna/Salifert manually to rule out errors.

For the past 3 months or so I've been fighting dinos. Started with Ostreopsis, beat it with in tank UV (still stragglers here and there so UV still 24/7). 3 weeks ago when Ostreopsis suppressed, LCAs came in (could be SCA but everyone on Mack's dino FB suggests LCA). I've dosed silicates via 40% waterglass to 2ppm. 10 days ago. I've let GHA run wild to help outcompete. What I've noticed is that everywhere the GHA is, the LCA will attach (half way up my rocks, I have to keep up with blowing them off).

I've used carbon starting 10 days ago too as I saw 1 snail parish. Still in sump ready to replace in a few days.

Now the bad. Starting 3 days ago, corals are stressed (green slimmer is usually always fully extended and polyps are barely seen, and my duncan is usually huge in PE, but almost closed up all day). I'm losing color in some SPS that were deeply colored, and a couple others RTN'd fast (over those 3 days). 5 trochus snails died yesterday, and it looks like another handful are dying today (even though they just laid eggs again). I don't know what to test. I'm doing an ICP today, but that will take a couple weeks.

I have not done a water change in almost 3 months - when the dinos started. I'm afraid it will start the dino cycle again. Do I water change? Do I start process of beating GHA and immediately dosing silicates to battle LCA? I'm not even sure LCA is causing my problems. I've had zero swings in any parameter that is measured.

I'm all out of ideas. Is my tank just crashing? Fish seem fine for now, RO water last ICP tested 4 months ago showed zero pollutants and filters look fresh still (have an inline TDS meter too).

I need some guidance. What's the safest approach?

Photo yesterday after blowing Dinos off:

So I’m doing this after the fact, but maybe it will help. I quoted my original post as it answers most of the questions.

Here are the other questions below.

Have you lost any fish to this problem yet?

The fish in question, a Blue Throat Fairy Wrasse, along with a small Bimac Anthias both parished about the same time.

Are any invertebrates affected?

Yesterday and today about 7 Trochus snails. But in the last two weeks also a cleaner shrimp that may be related. 3 days ago all corals started becoming stressed. Not sure if it’s the LCA Dinos in sand or something else that leached into the system. I’m sending ICP off tomorrow.

Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4)

I’ve only been able to do this by looking at the video I attached earlier. It’s about 150-160 gill beats per minute.

Are the affected fish still feeding?

Earlier today, the wrasse slightly ate and the Anthias did not as it hid under a rock the whole day.

What remedies have you tried so far?

About 20% water change. Doing another tomorrow morning and the next until I get to 100% (although it would still only be diluted down to 30%). I only have a 32g brute to work with right now for preparing water.


Here are the pics about 2 hours after recovering them.

 

[slingfox]

I feel your pain. I started my tank around the same time as you and fought a massive outbreak of dinos (all over the rock and thick layer of growth all over the sand bed) for 5 weeks starting in late October. I did almost everything commonly recommended. I believe the most important were running UV, dosing bacteria and silicate every day, and scrubbing the rocks and cleaning the sand every few days. Siphoning out the top layer of sand and rinsing it in saltwater multiple times until it runs relatively clear is important since that exports a lot of the dinos quickly. I probably had to do this siphoning and rinsing 8+ times during the height of the Dinos war. I did so with tap water but if I had to do it again I with salt water since that has a better chance of preserving more of the microbiome. Before adding the sand back into the tank I poured into the sand Microbacter7, Dr. Tim's Waste Away, or the Zeovit bacteria supplement (I had all three on hand).

Dinos decimated my copepod population. Before they were swarming all over my glass, even with limited Dino's now the pod population has not returned to the prior levels but that may be because my 4 wrasse keeping the pod population in check. Most of my snails died including the Nassarius which lived in the sand. I added Trochus during the Dino outbreak and some died and or spasmed when they touched the sand likely due to the Dino toxins. I had a few tester SPS and montis and they all slowly bleached then died. The only coral which survived are my torches and hammers and single mushroom coral. No fish died thankfully. I also had a strawberry conch which hid all day long. Once Dinos dissipated it started moving around a lot more. Most of my hermit crab population died but some survived. Urchins did fine since they seemed to just avoid Dino areas on the rock. I noticed that after a sandbed rinse and water change, my surviving snails and crabs would instantly appear and be much more active.

I have been mostly Dino free for the last two months or so. Even now though I see some growing on top of GHA. Those areas my CUC avoids like the plague. I tried putting three snails in an area with a mix of GHA + Dinos today. One snail would just detach from the rock and let the powerhead blow him to the sand. The other two got out of the area as fast as they could crawl.

Given my battle with dinos I have decided to only add soft corals for now. My tank is more stable (now dealing with GHA) but has a ways to go. Good luck with your Dino battle. Looking at your setup, I suggest rinsing out the top layer of sand. Then dose bacteria and silicate daily until the dinos get out competed. After my dinos got under control, I was hit by a cyano outbreak (more scrubbing of rock and rinsing the sand) which went away after two week, and then GHA took over. Since Dino's aren't killing my livestock anymore, I have been adding CUC which has done a great job at suppressing the GHA.

 

[musel101]

Everybody needs to calm down.

 

[musel101]

You okay?

 

[Dom]

Unfortunately I’m too late. Water change wasn’t in time. Lost both my Wrasse and my smallest Bimac Anthias.

Sorry this happened. Tell me; what lessons have you learned from this experience?

 

[Gumbies R Us]

Unfortunately I’m too late. Water change wasn’t in time. Lost both my Wrasse and my smallest Bimac Anthias.

Sorry about your losses!

 

[Idech]

I’m sorry about your losing fish.

If I was in your shoes, I would id those dinos under microscope and start appropriate treatment ASAP, either UV, dosing silicates or other.

The fact that your wrasse and inverts spend a lot of time close to the sand point towards the sand being a problem. And dinos are on the sand…

 

[buruskeee]

I feel your pain. I started my tank around the same time as you and fought a massive outbreak of dinos (all over the rock and thick layer of growth all over the sand bed) for 5 weeks starting in late October. I did almost everything commonly recommended. I believe the most important were running UV, dosing bacteria and silicate every day, and scrubbing the rocks and cleaning the sand every few days.

Yeah, it's a bummer. I had the more toxic strand first (ostreopsis) which was easy to beat with UV. What puzzles me is that literally over night, my corals went from looking awesome and starting to take off, to all stressed a few days ago when this all started happening. Large Cell isn't supposed to be very toxic. I'm starting to wonder if the whole tank just responded the same - like tolerated it without much notice, and then at one point it just completely knocked out defenses. I'll know more after ICP results. It just really sucks I had to lose fish this way.

I’m sorry about your losing fish.

If I was in your shoes, I would id those dinos under microscope and start appropriate treatment ASAP, either UV, dosing silicates or other.

The fact that your wrasse and inverts spend a lot of time close to the sand point towards the sand being a problem. And dinos are on the sand…

I've ID'd them both times. It's also somewhat the reason why I was more in "sit back" mode with these LCA dinos since they're reported not very harmful.

Sorry this happened. Tell me; what lessons have you learned from this experience?

A few:

1. As soon as I saw multiple snails suffering the day before my OP in this thread, I should have started the water change process regardless if it will negatively impact the dinos - short term peace of mind is better than resetting the process of battling the LCA dinos.

2. With LCA dinos, do not let GHA get out of control - I learned the hard way they use the GHA as extra real estate and start migrating away from the sand. I did not read about this anywhere and so it was impossible to prepare for this.

3. When I started seeing my wrasse struggle, I should have taken it out and put it in my "hospital" setup. Not to treat, but to allow to recover away from whatever toxins was apparent. I was too worried I would stress it to death by trying to catch it, but at least in hindsight I would have had a chance at saving them.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't know whether Dinos or something else is causing your issues - however sympathies on the loss. The fact that corals etc also had/have issues - suggest that there is a toxin of some sort that either was transiently in the tank. Whether low O2, Co2, ammonia, or a coral toxin or Dinos. The pictures of the dead fish don't really help decide.

 

[Jimbo327]

Did you test for ammonia with all the die off? Why not do a 20gal WC instead of waiting for 40gal? Even a 10gal would have helped.

 

[buruskeee]

I don't know whether Dinos or something else is causing your issues - however sympathies on the loss. The fact that corals etc also had/have issues - suggest that there is a toxin of some sort that either was transiently in the tank. Whether low O2, Co2, ammonia, or a coral toxin or Dinos. The pictures of the dead fish don't really help decide.

Thank you - losing fish in this fashion of not knowing is hard.

It’s tough to say without getting the ICP back. What’s odd is that the corals went from very happy to very stressed literally over night. I did not add anything for the week prior. I don’t think Dinos would be such an instant response like that when they’ve been in the tank for 3 weeks (LCA, ostreopsis for the 5 weeks before that).

I have 2 heaters in the sump I’ll have to inspect, but both show full wattage when turned on. Only other thing - besides wet sides of the 3 MP40, is the return pump and another smaller return pump in the DT powering my UV. Not sure either can leach anything.

I did throw away some chaeto that somewhat rotted because I stopped shining light on it for 10 days. Maybe that could release toxins?

 

[MnFish1]

Do you have activated carbon in the tank?

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you - losing fish in this fashion of not knowing is hard.

It’s tough to say without getting the ICP back. What’s odd is that the corals went from very happy to very stressed literally over night. I did not add anything for the week prior. I don’t think Dinos would be such an instant response like that when they’ve been in the tank for 3 weeks (LCA, ostreopsis for the 5 weeks before that).

I have 2 heaters in the sump I’ll have to inspect, but both show full wattage when turned on. Only other thing - besides wet sides of the 3 MP40, is the return pump and another smaller return pump in the DT powering my UV. Not sure either can leach anything.

I did throw away some chaeto that somewhat rotted because I stopped shining light on it for 10 days. Maybe that could release toxins?

How long before this happened did you throw away the chaeto

 

[buruskeee]

Did you test for ammonia with all the die off? Why not do a 20gal WC instead of waiting for 40gal? Even a 10gal would have helped.

I tested for ammonia (API) two different times yesterday - as soon as I saw the fish struggling, and a few hours after. Also have a salifert colol chart in sump.

I waited because I felt a 20% change would have much better results than a 10% change. Time saving would have been 2 hours for me. The biggest issue is I waited because I didn’t know if it was worth feeding the Dinos. Hindsight I would have water changed the day before when the snails were getting picked off and coral stressed. I just didn’t want to make the dinos more potent later by letting them double in numbers from feeding it trace they love.