Help with angel fish.

[gracie3700]

This is the second time in two seperate quarantine tanks this has happened. The fish were never together and cross contamination did not happen. I had a juv emperor that had Flukes, he was in a quarantine with a bubbler and prazi, went to work came home he was on his side struggling to breathe with what seemed to be a swim bladder issue. His entire body also turned red (completely odd because i tested water and did 30% change prior to second prazi treatment). He had his color 8 hours before as well. 12 hrs later and he passed away. Now I have a lemon peel angel, whom was in my display tank, but I noticed some white splotches and raised scaled and a bloated tummy, I started with a week long kanaplex treatment, one scoop per 5 gals every 2 days. Then I let him sit for a week in qt. He was fine this morning then when I came home same thing, on his side couldn’t right himself breathing hard. I also noticed a red spot on one of his front fins. I made sure params were same and put him back in a briefer box in my display to negate any possible water quality issues in qt that may have triggered this. Hopefully going to get erythromycin tomorrow and start that if he makes it through the night.

I am at a loss of what to do this is the second time, seperate instances with same symptoms, totally unsure of what is happening and what is going wrong. At this point assuming it is a bacteria not treated by kanaplex.

 

[kboogie]

This is the second time in two seperate quarantine tanks this has happened. The fish were never together and cross contamination did not happen. I had a juv emperor that had Flukes, he was in a quarantine with a bubbler and prazi, went to work came home he was on his side struggling to breathe with what seemed to be a swim bladder issue. His entire body also turned red (completely odd because i tested water and did 30% change prior to second prazi treatment). He had his color 8 hours before as well. 12 hrs later and he passed away. Now I have a lemon peel angel, whom was in my display tank, but I noticed some white splotches and raised scaled and a bloated tummy, I started with a week long kanaplex treatment, one scoop per 5 gals every 2 days. Then I let him sit for a week in qt. He was fine this morning then when I came home same thing, on his side couldn’t right himself breathing hard. I also noticed a red spot on one of his front fins. I made sure params were same and put him back in a briefer box in my display to negate any possible water quality issues in qt that may have triggered this. Hopefully going to get erythromycin tomorrow and start that if he makes it through the night.

I am at a loss of what to do this is the second time, seperate instances with same symptoms, totally unsure of what is happening and what is going wrong. At this point assuming it is a bacteria not treated by kanaplex.

I know it will sound odd but what you are describing sounds like chemical poisoning to me. I don’t know which one. The redness and the speed are signs I’ve seen before when the water was not right. I’ve seen this from heavy metals. I’ve also seen this from chlorine.

It is just a thought.

 

[gracie3700]

I know it will sound odd but what you are describing sounds like chemical poisoning to me. I don’t know which one. The redness and the speed are signs I’ve seen before when the water was not right. I’ve seen this from heavy metals. I’ve also seen this from chlorine.

It is just a thought.

Nothings been added other than initial prime for chlorines and then the kanaplex/prazi respectively. So Im not really sure :/

 

[artieg1]

In my (hard earned) experience, deaths in QT are almost always because of ammonia or oxygen deprivation. Don’t rely on Prime. Do you have a robust biofilter? Strong oxygenation and water flow?

 

[gracie3700]

In my (hard earned) experience, deaths in QT are almost always because of ammonia or oxygen deprivation. Don’t rely on Prime. Do you have a robust biofilter? Strong oxygenation and water flow?

They both had either a sponge filter or hob with an air stone, and some cycled media from my display.

 

[vetteguy53081]

This is the second time in two seperate quarantine tanks this has happened. The fish were never together and cross contamination did not happen. I had a juv emperor that had Flukes, he was in a quarantine with a bubbler and prazi, went to work came home he was on his side struggling to breathe with what seemed to be a swim bladder issue. His entire body also turned red (completely odd because i tested water and did 30% change prior to second prazi treatment). He had his color 8 hours before as well. 12 hrs later and he passed away. Now I have a lemon peel angel, whom was in my display tank, but I noticed some white splotches and raised scaled and a bloated tummy, I started with a week long kanaplex treatment, one scoop per 5 gals every 2 days. Then I let him sit for a week in qt. He was fine this morning then when I came home same thing, on his side couldn’t right himself breathing hard. I also noticed a red spot on one of his front fins. I made sure params were same and put him back in a briefer box in my display to negate any possible water quality issues in qt that may have triggered this. Hopefully going to get erythromycin tomorrow and start that if he makes it through the night.

I am at a loss of what to do this is the second time, seperate instances with same symptoms, totally unsure of what is happening and what is going wrong. At this point assuming it is a bacteria not treated by kanaplex.

If canister is primary filter, this may be one of the issues, Will explain in a bit but with fish, butterfly with hemorrhaging could be uronema but before any assessments are made, really need pics and even viddeo under bright light, no blue lighting. Ertythro may not be the best cure but rather neomyacin (seachem neoplex)
For filter if canister is what you have, the canister is a mechanical filter and you want to have mechanical , biological and chemical to manage proper water quality. The canister will polish water and trap particles via the cartridge.
Chemical is what traps and breaks down chemical compounds such as feces and uneaten food often accomplished with use of carbon and GFO as examples
Biological is what utilizes the natural process of biological filtration such as use of ceramic nuggets, bio blocks, and microscopic bacteria surfaces as examples. Best it to add or use a hang on refugium such as Reef octopus or AquaMaxx unit and even add a hang on skimmer such as ice cap K1- or K2 100
Ammonia spike may have been very possible and often undetectable after the spike event.

 

[reefernc02]

Can’t say for sure but I’ve read that if your qt isn’t a certain distance 10-12 feet from the dt certain things like ich can actually aerosolize not saying this is ich but it may be possible with other parasites but I digress I’ll leave this area to jay hemdal by far the best person to answer these questions

 

[gracie3700]

If canister is primary filter, this may be one of the issues, Will explain in a bit but with fish, butterfly with hemorrhaging could be uronema but before any assessments are made, really need pics and even viddeo under bright light, no blue lighting. Ertythro may not be the best cure but rather neomyacin (seachem neoplex)
For filter if canister is what you have, the canister is a mechanical filter and you want to have mechanical , biological and chemical to manage proper water quality. The canister will polish water and trap particles via the cartridge.
Chemical is what traps and breaks down chemical compounds such as feces and uneaten food often accomplished with use of carbon and GFO as examples
Biological is what utilizes the natural process of biological filtration such as use of ceramic nuggets, bio blocks, and microscopic bacteria surfaces as examples. Best it to add or use a hang on refugium such as Reef octopus or AquaMaxx unit and even add a hang on skimmer such as ice cap K1- or K2 100
Ammonia spike may have been very possible and often undetectable after the spike event.

Not a canister just an internal HOB, it’s got some filter floss. Im back at work the lemon peel angel has some red around his front fins where the connect to his body and a red spot on his fin. Very clearly a swim bladder issue as he’s stuck on one side in a horrible looking position. Kanaplex helped with raised scales and white splotches but now he’s got the red splotch.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Not a canister just an internal HOB, it’s got some filter floss. Im back at work the lemon peel angel has some red around his front fins where the connect to his body and a red spot on his fin. Very clearly a swim bladder issue as he’s stuck on one side in a horrible looking position. Kanaplex helped with raised scales and white splotches but now he’s got the red splotch.

This is internal filter even worse for maintaining needed water quality (would be good for a quarantine tank). Also a mechanical unit and insufficient. Low dissolved oxygen and elevated ammonia and nitrates are possible.
How are you testing water ?

 

[gracie3700]

This is internal filter even worse for maintaining needed water quality (would be good for a quarantine tank). Also a mechanical unit and insufficient. Low dissolved oxygen and elevated ammonia and nitrates are possible.
How are you testing water ?

Yes he is in a QT, sorry I didn’t clarify, there is also an air stone in the tank to help with oxygen. I’ve been using API liquid to test, can’t currently afford all of the hanna checkers.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes he is in a QT, sorry I didn’t clarify, there is also an air stone in the tank to help with oxygen. I’ve been using API liquid to test, can’t currently afford all of the hanna checkers.

Have a store that does noy use API tests, check your water for you. While API is not the worse, it is often misread or inaccurate and not helping you with water management

 

[MnFish1]

Yes he is in a QT, sorry I didn’t clarify, there is also an air stone in the tank to help with oxygen. I’ve been using API liquid to test, can’t currently afford all of the hanna checkers.

I apologize - is there a reason you didn't start with copper? How did you diagnose flukes in the first place?

I guess there are 2 options,
1. You misdiagnosed flukes and it was actually velvet or another illness. There are at least a couple of possibilities - and as already suggested pictures would be helpful. I assume you took carbon out of the filter (or anything like that)
2. There is something in your protocol that is causing a toxic situation. Depending on how long you acclimated your fish there could be a problem with that. Double checking your test kits. Remembering that Prime can affect ammonia tests. However, most issues are false high positives not 0 ammonia for example.

 

[gracie3700]

Have a store that does noy use API tests, check your water for you. While API is not the worse, it is often misread or inaccurate and not helping you with water management

I’ve edited the post for a picture of the lemon peel, he’s alive currently but looks horrible.

 

[gracie3700]

I apologize - is there a reason you didn't start with copper? How did you diagnose flukes in the first place?

I guess there are 2 options,
1. You misdiagnosed flukes and it was actually velvet or another illness. There are at least a couple of possibilities - and as already suggested pictures would be helpful. I assume you took carbon out of the filter (or anything like that)
2. There is something in your protocol that is causing a toxic situation. Depending on how long you acclimated your fish there could be a problem with that. Double checking your test kits. Remembering that Prime can affect ammonia tests. However, most issues are false high positives not 0 ammonia for example.

The emperor had flukes, FW dip reveled those guys. The lemon peel went though two weeks of copper as first step of quarantine. No carbon of course. The emperor has since passed but the lemon peel is looking horrible, there’s a picture of him on this thread now. Will do updated test once I get home from work.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’ve edited the post for a picture of the lemon peel, he’s alive currently but looks horrible.

Picture helps a lot. This fish is Moribund, similar to a coma like phase and will likely not eat or swim moving forward. Wish I could state something more positive

 

[gracie3700]

Picture helps a lot. This fish is Moribund, similar to a coma like phase and will likely not eat or swim moving forward. Wish I could state something more positive

Is there anything I can do for him medication wise. I had a struggle with him the entire time Ive had him getting him to eat. The only thing he’d eat when he was able was the algae in my display. Unfortunately I had to pull him because of a few white spots and then the raised scales.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Is there anything I can do for him medication wise. I had a struggle with him the entire time Ive had him getting him to eat. The only thing he’d eat when he was able was the algae in my display. Unfortunately I had to pull him because of a few white spots and then the raised scales.

This while a pretty fish is not an easy fish and best suited for well established tanks. In this condition, not much you can do unfortunately as it will not eat or swim normal in this state of health

 

[MnFish1]

Is there anything I can do for him medication wise. I had a struggle with him the entire time Ive had him getting him to eat. The only thing he’d eat when he was able was the algae in my display. Unfortunately I had to pull him because of a few white spots and then the raised scales.

I understand you're frustrated and obviously feeling bad - and I don't want to add to that - however - as @vetteguy53081 mentioned - this fish is moribund - and the likelihood of survival is (at best) very minimal. The point I wanted to make is how to prevent this in the future - which was your original question - I think the fish probably has ich (based on the white spots - which I can't see) - and your quarantine in copper was inadequate. Whether your first fish had flukes or not I don't know - but I don't think these two things are related - except in the fact that you are not following the correct quarantine protocol as quickly as it should be instituted.

As to your Lemon Peel The base of the pectoral fins are red - suggesting a bacterial issue - likely secondary to whatever the primary issue was. You could try a broad spectrum antibiotic - but I would have low expectations.

Again - sorry for this frustration! And keep us updated.

 

[gracie3700]

I understand you're frustrated and obviously feeling bad - and I don't want to add to that - however - as @vetteguy53081 mentioned - this fish is moribund - and the likelihood of survival is (at best) very minimal. The point I wanted to make is how to prevent this in the future - which was your original question - I think the fish probably has ich (based on the white spots - which I can't see) - and your quarantine in copper was inadequate. Whether your first fish had flukes or not I don't know - but I don't think these two things are related - except in the fact that you are not following the correct quarantine protocol as quickly as it should be instituted.

As to your Lemon Peel The base of the pectoral fins are red - suggesting a bacterial issue - likely secondary to whatever the primary issue was. You could try a broad spectrum antibiotic - but I would have low expectations.

Again - sorry for this frustration! And keep us updated.

He ended up passing away a few minutes ago. Do you have a step by step protocol that I can follow for the future? Very devastating loss but glad he’s no longer suffering.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is the second time in two seperate quarantine tanks this has happened. The fish were never together and cross contamination did not happen. I had a juv emperor that had Flukes, he was in a quarantine with a bubbler and prazi, went to work came home he was on his side struggling to breathe with what seemed to be a swim bladder issue. His entire body also turned red (completely odd because i tested water and did 30% change prior to second prazi treatment). He had his color 8 hours before as well. 12 hrs later and he passed away. Now I have a lemon peel angel, whom was in my display tank, but I noticed some white splotches and raised scaled and a bloated tummy, I started with a week long kanaplex treatment, one scoop per 5 gals every 2 days. Then I let him sit for a week in qt. He was fine this morning then when I came home same thing, on his side couldn’t right himself breathing hard. I also noticed a red spot on one of his front fins. I made sure params were same and put him back in a briefer box in my display to negate any possible water quality issues in qt that may have triggered this. Hopefully going to get erythromycin tomorrow and start that if he makes it through the night.

I am at a loss of what to do this is the second time, seperate instances with same symptoms, totally unsure of what is happening and what is going wrong. At this point assuming it is a bacteria not treated by kanaplex.

Sorry to hear that.

I'm not certain that the two issues are fully related. The raised scales and bloated belly on the lemon peel points more to kidney or liver failure. The emperor may have had Neobenedenia flukes (they are known for getting this!) but the infection was severe enough that a secondary bacterial infection subsequently set in.