Flame angel acting weird after cooper

[thecommentr86]

Copper did not kill your fish. I have had many flames in copper, and coral beauties. I had two die that shook their heads like yours did. And conclusion was possibly cyanide poisoning. Because the one I saw in the last moment went around is strange circles, and odd swimming before dying in an instant after that ordeal. The second one I didn’t see how it passed. But both had the same head shake your fish had.

Having read through many of the posts.

What are you using to measure copper? Just the Salifert? What are you using to measure ammonia? API? How are you dosing prime? As in device. Just the cap or measuring it by the bottle instructions?

I have QT’ed countless amounts of angles of all types, not a single issue with copper. Have QT’ed as much as 18-20 fish in one tank at once (I will not recommend this! Only reason was a ich outbreak that started infecting all the fish big time). Angles, tangs, clowns, wrasses. Never had copper issues. And have even done prime when I could not get a WC that day. No deaths. Now I never just dosed at free will. I always use measuring devices that I made sure are accurate in reading by using a precision calibrated graduated cylinder to verify my syringes.

For the past two years I have not even done ramp up for copper, I use copper power, and dose to 2.3-2.4ppm and put fish in directly. Currently have two Blue damsels, three dwarfs angles (flame, CB, and a golden angle) , and a powder blue, and a black cap basslet, in a 20 long. All are eating, no stress, and living life in medicated water. All were ich infected from the tank they were in prior.

My theory is prime masks ammonia, ammonia never leaves the system because it literally has no way to leave it, and then spikes back with a vengeance, once the prime is not working any longer. Had a skimmer been present it might have helped. But most QT systems are not big enough or have a possibility of a skimmer to be added. Either way I have seen prime when I would dose it, again emergency use only, only hold back ammonia for about 24 hours no more. I’m not a chemist to be able to tell you in detail what takes place 100%, but it would seem prime binds it temporary then after about 24 (was the case once for me), it comes back because it’s not being taken out of the system. So I never would wait up the 24 hour mark. I did what I had to get a good 50% water change for the tank before the 24 hour period.

My new method is now seeding Polyplab Genesis rock in a healthy disease free tank. And boy does the bacteria work off these rocks in QT tanks at maintaining ammonia levels. Other super nice thing they don’t hold on to chemicals or meds. So when dosing copper, no absorption. Dosing prazi nothing is going to stay in the system, same with antibiotics if needed. But you get the benifit of large amounts of bacteria population. I now even have loads of pods in my ongoing QT thanks! It’s nuts! Have not seen anything like this. The rocks really do work.

Did you skip my entire thread?! I’m actually being serious.

Did you see where I mentioned I tested for ammonia. Or where I don’t know I spoke to a marine biologist and multiple LFS. That I did a water change to the tank dossing copper before a large one hence the prime usage, that the fish were perfectly fine literal minutes before and eating and swimming.

At this point all fish had been in QT for 2-3 weeks. I also mentioned that even the fish that didn’t have velvet died in the QT the morning after. I tested for ammonia twice when they were acting up and again this was acute.

Ammonia toxicity doesn’t occur in 10 minutes or less that would be a gradual build up and would require neglect of water changes which again a large one was done before and they are done every 5-7 days.

We are even getting others chiming in that yk what it may have been the copper and prime mixing **** that makes sense.

Throughout this thread the consensus or mine changed after speaking again to a marine biologist and others on here it wasn’t the copper power that killed them but the mixing of copper power and prime.

Also cyndaide wouldnt be that acute and cause a tank wide die off in hours including fish wouldn’t be caught with cynide / different LFS

This has to be the one response that has be actually quite heated.

Also ammonia can leave a system through oh I don’t know A WATER CHANGE dangit

 

[winxp_man]

Did you skip my entire thread?! I’m actually being serious.

No I read to most of it. And I posted what I posted.


Did you see where I mentioned I tested for ammonia. Or where I don’t know I spoke to a marine biologist and multiple LFS. That I did a water change to the tank dossing copper before a large one hence the prime usage, that the fish were perfectly fine literal minutes before and eating and swimming.

Yes but if you really want to read crazy things go check out about ammonia testing in accuracies! There are many among all testers. Randy and some of the older forum chem members have write ups about this.

At this point all fish had been in QT for 2-3 weeks. I also mentioned that even the fish that didn’t have velvet died in the QT the morning after. I tested for ammonia twice when they were acting up and again this was acute.


Ammonia toxicity doesn’t occur in 10 minutes or less that would be a gradual build up and would require neglect of water changes which again a large one was done before and they are done every 5-7 days.

Before I started using PL Genesis Rocks for bac surface, I found that sponges are of no use almost. With the amount of fish you have, I would do a WC every two days. And I could see dirty water. Thus even ammonia was up. Read below about my findings with prime being used to mask ammonia. It’s all it literally is. Prime should not even be used in a tank if you’re doing a QT system correctly.


We are even getting others chiming in that yk what it may have been the copper and prime mixing **** that makes sense.

Never said it couldn’t have been the issue. Prime and copper that is. I have used it myself to and no issues. BUT I did WC immediately the next day. What I was saying is that ammonia is built up and that when prime would fade it would literally spike my ammonia level to unsafe levels.

Throughout this thread the consensus or mine changed after speaking again to a marine biologist and others on here it wasn’t the copper power that killed them but the mixing of copper power and prime.

Also cyndaide wouldnt be that acute and cause a tank wide die off in hours including fish wouldn’t be caught with cynide / different LFS

I was talking about the issues of your flame twitching! Had this take place to two flames from two different LFS’s. This has nothing to do with the issue of cyanide. It’s the issues they most LFS’s all use the same vendors. Again it’s all in my post as the rest of the story and what took place. The detail I left out was I bought two flames one from one LFS and another from another LFS. And at both shops within a few days after mine passed the rest passed at these shops too. Can anyone say plain coincidence? That would be far fetched to say such things! And one of the shops I asked one of the employees I’m acquainted if he saw how they passed. He said that after a few days of twitching, one went around in circles. The others he didn’t see how they passed. So same circumstances as mine had. And the coral beauty that was with it in the tank made it passed QT no problem. (my qt that is)


This has to be the one response that has be actually quite heated.

Also ammonia can leave a system through oh I don’t know A WATER CHANGE dangit

What I stated is that over all if you bio sponge is not seeded with enough bacteria to deal with food that is stuck in the filter, with ammonia from fish, fish feces bringing up ammonia, you end up with levels that can be harmful. And yes everyone knows WC bring down ammonia, but 5-7 days before a water change running a QT off a bio sponge will not be a good path to take. Again why went to genisis rocks for QT and never looked back! It’s insane the amount of bac that it can store, and it does not absorb anything you might use in a QT. So my QT systems since doing this route have hardly had a need for added bacteria, and I can likely leave a 7 days without a WC depending on the amount I feed, I do it to have clean water. But a week with proper feeding is easy going for a fish or two in a 20 long WT system.

Fun fact have done prime and tester before and fast dosing and used seachem ammonia badge. The spike I’m talking about is well documented for me personally! I have seen the badge drop to .25 or less of free amonia, then the next day after a 24 hour period spike to dangerous levels that almost killed my poor emperor angle. It’s at about that timeframe I said I need something else aside from sponges for bac surface. Prime held back ammonia for at most 24 hours, but if I’m recalling correctly maybe even less. But I dosed prime at the proper .1 ml per gallon. I didn’t do drops or cap measurements.

 

[BloopFish]

Copper did not kill your fish. I have had many flames in copper, and coral beauties. I had two die that shook their heads like yours did. And conclusion was possibly cyanide poisoning. Because the one I saw in the last moment went around is strange circles, and odd swimming before dying in an instant after that ordeal. The second one I didn’t see how it passed. But both had the same head shake your fish had.

Having read through many of the posts.

What are you using to measure copper? Just the Salifert? What are you using to measure ammonia? API? How are you dosing prime? As in device. Just the cap or measuring it by the bottle instructions?

I have QT’ed countless amounts of angles of all types, not a single issue with copper. Have QT’ed as much as 18-20 fish in one tank at once (I will not recommend this! Only reason was a ich outbreak that started infecting all the fish big time). Angles, tangs, clowns, wrasses. Never had copper issues. And have even done prime when I could not get a WC that day. No deaths. Now I never just dosed at free will. I always use measuring devices that I made sure are accurate in reading by using a precision calibrated graduated cylinder to verify my syringes.

For the past two years I have not even done ramp up for copper, I use copper power, and dose to 2.3-2.4ppm and put fish in directly. Currently have two Blue damsels, three dwarfs angles (flame, CB, and a golden angle) , and a powder blue, and a black cap basslet, in a 20 long. All are eating, no stress, and living life in medicated water. All were ich infected from the tank they were in prior.

My theory is prime masks ammonia, ammonia never leaves the system because it literally has no way to leave it, and then spikes back with a vengeance, once the prime is not working any longer. Had a skimmer been present it might have helped. But most QT systems are not big enough or have a possibility of a skimmer to be added. Either way I have seen prime when I would dose it, again emergency use only, only hold back ammonia for about 24 hours no more. I’m not a chemist to be able to tell you in detail what takes place 100%, but it would seem prime binds it temporary then after about 24 (was the case once for me), it comes back because it’s not being taken out of the system. So I never would wait up the 24 hour mark. I did what I had to get a good 50% water change for the tank before the 24 hour period.

My new method is now seeding Polyplab Genesis rock in a healthy disease free tank. And boy does the bacteria work off these rocks in QT tanks at maintaining ammonia levels. Other super nice thing they don’t hold on to chemicals or meds. So when dosing copper, no absorption. Dosing prazi nothing is going to stay in the system, same with antibiotics if needed. But you get the benifit of large amounts of bacteria population. I now even have loads of pods in my ongoing QT thanks! It’s nuts! Have not seen anything like this. The rocks really do work.

You have no proof that cyanide actually killed those fish. You keep insisting this, but its more likely you have just killed the fish through other means. Flame angels do not come from the regions where Jay lists as cyanide being common. Sometimes you have to accept that you have made mistakes and let go of your ego.

 

[BloopFish]

AH! I totally missed that you had combined Prime with Copper Power!

This is a potential issues that goes way underreported - any reducing agent, (Prime, dechlor, formalin, ammonia neutralizers, etc.) have the possibility of breaking the amine-copper bond, releasing free copper, that is then very toxic. The trouble is, there is no way to test this. The copper test kits also break the amine-copper bond and measures the total copper, and that amount is the same - bonded or free, but it is the free copper that is toxic!

Side note: I never used reducing agents with any copper products. That means my experience never has that variable added in to the equation.

Sorry that this happened to your fish!

https://fritzaquatics.com/products/coppersafe/

Fritz lists coppersafe as being fine to be used with fritz water conditioners. Within their line of water conditioners they also have ammonia "blocking" ones. I have used sodium thiosuflate with copper power and copper safe with no ill effect at high levels. I think its possible thiosulfate and other common dechlorinators may not be strong enough of a reducing agent to be doing much to chelated copper, but I think it is possible and easy to avoid the use of though.

 

[winxp_man]

You have no proof that cyanide actually killed those fish. You keep insisting this, but its more likely you have just killed the fish through other means. Flame angels do not come from the regions where Jay lists as cyanide being common. Sometimes you have to accept that you have made mistakes and let go of your ego.

Again the proof is how the fish acts in the moments of death. There are certain traits that show when a fish dies of cyanide. I have also had and CB Angel die from hitting the tank glass, seen that take place, have seen a tang die from the same thing, being I heard the pop on the glass from the fish running around after being startled, so I started painting my QT tanks black on four sides, aside from the front for viewing.

The evidence is in what a fish does, I have seen fish die of salinity rise too fast. So these types of things make a record book on how fish most likely die of certain things. And I’m not here to prove anything to anyone not willing to read my posts. I’m saying it’s a possibility. Cyanide poisoning can show up weeks after a fish is caught. It’s a real thing.

And yes it’s a known fact that once Hawaii was shut down to collection more flames came from areas that had collectors that used cyanide. And having had angles at possibly over a hundred QTed I know what I’m doing. Nothing about ego. Again nothing to prove. Currently as I’m typing this I have a flame, a CB and a golden in QT. Dropped all three day one in 2.3-2.4 ppm copper. They are all doing great.

So years ago when I got into QT and started to study the medical world of QT’ing fish and diseases I will say many fish where my fault, but as of the past couple of years I have not lost any fish due to copper. Instead for me angles have passed away because of internal uronema as the most common killer. To which not much can be done, and the cyanide point, not saying that’s the issue here. Go back and read my posts! I’m saying I had fish die from it because of the characteristics of the passing.

Now why that is hard to understand is beyond me.

 

[BloopFish]

Again the proof is how the fish acts. There are certain traits that show when a fish dies of cyanide. I have also had and CB Angel die from hitting the tank glass, seen that take place, have seen a tang die from the same thing, being I heard the pop on the glass from the fish running around after being startled, so I started painting my QT tanks black on four side.

The evidence is in what a fish does, I have seen fish die of salinity rise too fast. So these types of things make a record book on how fish most likely die of certain things. And I’m not here to prove anything to anyone not willing to read my posts. I’m saying it’s a possibility. Cyanide poisoning can show up weeks after a fish is caught. It’s a real thing.

And yes it’s a known fact that once Hawaii was shut down to collection more flames came from areas that had collectors that used cyanide. And having had angles at possibly over a hundred QTed I know what I’m doing. Nothing about ego. Again nothing to prove. Currently as I’m typing this I have a flame, a CB and a golden in QT. Dropped all three day one in 2.3-2.4 ppm copper. They are all doing great.

So years ago when I got into QT and started to study the medical world of QT’ing fish and diseases I will say many fish where my fault, but as of the past couple of years I have not lost any fish due to copper. Instead for me angles have passed away because of internal uronema as the most common killer. To which not much can be done, and the cyanide point, not saying that’s the issue here. Go back and read my posts! I’m saying I had fish die from it because of the characteristics of the passing.

Now why that is hard to understand is beyond me.

What areas are flames collected that use cyanide? Please name them. How many does that country collect? How do you know that symptom is of cyanide poisoning? Do you have proof that this is indicative of cyanide? Please elaborate with proof before accusing people of using things that are banned substances.

 

[Fish Fan]

What areas are flames collected that use cyanide? Please name them. How many does that country collect? How do you know that symptom is of cyanide poisoning? Do you have proof that this is indicative of cyanide? Please elaborate with proof before accusing people of using things that are banned substances.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/f...k-to-powerhead-and-dead.1137460/post-14003154
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...re-twice-in-two-months.1124469/#post-13801460

 

[winxp_man]

What areas are flames collected that use cyanide? Please name them. How many does that country collect? How do you know that symptom is of cyanide poisoning? Do you have proof that this is indicative of cyanide? Please elaborate with proof before accusing people of using things that are banned substances.

First off the fish collection trades can change in an instance out side of the US. That is a fact you don’t get that cyanide being banned does not mean anything to the South Pacific tells me more.

A trait known for cyanide poisoning is fish dropping dead. Not a single spec of disease showing, eating days before death without a problem, gills looking the red that normal gills are, swimming in crazy circles right before death, these are hallmark symptoms of cyanide.

As for collections, I tired talking to both LFS’s I got the fish during that period from and nothing was given as in names just that they are obviously collectors form SE Asia. Both shops now that I’m recalling that time frame had the same random death pattern. As in just dead fish. But one of the fish again that was described to me on how it died was just like mine. Coincidence? And I’m not going to assume I even know where the fish came from in the end because I don’t have the info to give out. Fact remains that healthy fish dropped dead after a week in QT.

Edit: yes cyanide can show issues of fish not eating, being lethargic, not swimming properly, but it can also hide the underlying issues and you think your getting a healthy fish that is eating when it takes a turn for the worse over night.

Again not my first time QT’ing angles at that point, had many do just fine.

But why, again, your stuck on my cyanide statement… is beyond me. When that was not even what I stated that the Ops fish died of for sure. And I saw later on that after reading through the thread that more of the Ops fish died. So that is a prime issue mixing with copper and possible ammonia release.

My run in with prime has never resulted in death, but it has resulted in ammonia spike after 24 hours +-.

But what do I know I guess, just that my fish survive well past the QT protocol that is mixed with the protocol from here and a few different additions that give me the ability to even QT mandarine gobies.

 

[BloopFish]

First off the fish collection trades can change in an instance out side of the US. That is a fact you don’t get that cyanide being banned does not mean anything to the South Pacific tells me more.

A trait known for cyanide poisoning is fish dropping dead. Not a single spec of disease showing, eating days before death without a problem, gills looking the red that normal gills are, swimming in crazy circles right before death, these are hallmark symptoms of cyanide.

As for collections, I tired talking to both LFS’s I got the fish during that period from and nothing was given as in names just that they are obviously collectors form SE Asia. Both shops now that I’m recalling that time frame had the same random death pattern. As in just dead fish. But one of the fish again that was described to me on how it died was just like mine. Coincidence? And I’m not going to assume even know where the fish came from in the end. Fact remains that healthy fish dropped dead after a week in QT.

Edit: yes cyanide can show issues of fish not eating, being lethargic, not swimming properly, but it can also hide the underlying issues and you think your getting a healthy fish that is eating when it takes a turn for the worse over night.

Again not my first time QT’ing angles at that point, had many do just fine.

But why, again, your stuck on my cyanide statement… is beyond me. When that was not even what I stated that the Ops fish died of for sure. And I saw later on that after reading through the thread that more of the Ops fish died. So that is a prime issue mixing with copper and possible ammonia release.

My run in with prime has never resulted in death, but it has resulted in ammonia spike after 24 hours +-.

But what do I know I guess, just that my fish survive well past the QT protocol that is mixed with the protocol from here and a few different additions that give me the ability to even QT mandarine gobies.

By the way, the vast majority of flame angels are not collected in the South Pacific or Southeast Asia, so you're just making stuff up at this point. The vast majority are collected in the Northern Hemisphere. How about just buy from the vast majority of sources where its not from the South Pacific or Southeast Asia if you're afraid of that? Yeah, they are sparsely collected, but the majority come from the North Pacific. Again, you're just afraid of accountability.

 

[winxp_man]

By the way, the vast majority of flame angels are not collected in the South Pacific or Southeast Asia, so you're just making stuff up at this point. The vast majority are collected in the Northern Hemisphere. How about just buy from the vast majority of sources where its not from the South Pacific or Southeast Asia if you're afraid of that? Yeah, they are sparsely collected, but the majority come from the North Pacific. Again, you're just afraid of accountability.

You’re stuck in the fact why it does not happen and that I just don’t know how to keep fish alive in QT. Nothing to prove to you. Simple fact is that it can happen. So what is your point with all the posts about this? Is there an end game?

Go back and read my post, I don’t have a clue about the collection point. And let me ask you this. Is it possible that a batch collected with such methods make it to the US market? Enlighten me….

Yes your highness I’m wrong. Your are right. Please forgive me.

 

[BloopFish]

You’re stuck in the fact why it does not happen and that I just don’t know how to keep fish alive in QT. Nothing to prove to you. Simple fact is that it can happen. So what is your point with all the posts about this? Is there an end game?

Go back and read my post, I don’t have a clue about the collection point. And let me ask you this. Is it possible that a batch collected with such methods make it to the US market? Enlighten me….

Yes your highness I’m wrong. Your are right. Please forgive me.

You can continue to be in denial, but 9/10 times your flame angel is not from Southeast Asia. They actually import most of their flame angels from other countries. I doubt you got multiple instances of flame angels with cyanid poisoning... again, zero accountability here and just blaming the "boogie man" that is cyanide

 

[winxp_man]

You can continue to be in denial, but 9/10 times your flame angel is not from Southeast Asia. They actually import most of their flame angels from other countries. I doubt you got multiple instances of flame angels with cyanid poisoning... again, zero accountability here and just blaming the "boogie man" that is cyanide

Not a geography buff. I bunch the Marshall Islands, Christmas islands, Line Islands and can’t think the fourth common place or collection in SEAsia. Just me and my wording was wrong. Point being what you can’t prove it does not happen. But fact is there are hallmark death effects. And you ruling out such possibility out give me good laugh. But you do you.

Just because a substance is illegal means it can’t possibly be used? Are you literally saying such thing? Haha.

Edit. It would be nice if you stop putting words in my posts. Didn’t nice push cyanide as the bogey man. But again as stated above, you making it as if that’s all my posts stated. I would recommend you go back and read my posts.

 

[BloopFish]

Not a geography buff. I bunch the Marshall Islands, Christmas islands, Line Islands and can’t think the fourth common place or collection in SEAsia. Just me and my wording was wrong. Point being what you can’t prove it does not happen. But fact is there are hallmark death effects. And you ruling out such possibility out give me good laugh. But you do you.

Those are not South East Asia... It isn't even part of Asia... this is like calling Poland part of Asia... pretty weird. In fact, this is quite offensive to some people. "can't prove it does not happen" - okay, but can you prove it DOES happen? If your basis of reality is to prove it DOESN'T happen then you are clearly not of scientific mind lol. Again, you are just afraid of accountability in accepting the fact you made a mistake and quarantined your fish incorrectly...

 

[winxp_man]

Those are not South East Asia... It isn't even part of Asia... this is like calling Poland part of Asia... pretty weird. In fact, this is quite offensive to some people. "can't prove it does not happen" - okay, but can you prove it DOES happen? If your basis of reality is to prove it DOESN'T happen then you are clearly not of scientific mind lol. Again, you are just afraid of accountability in accepting the fact you made a mistake and quarantined your fish incorrectly...

You have reading skill issues. Worse than my geography issues! At least I admit to that. I’m done debating this point with you. Have a good night.

Cheers-

 

[BloopFish]

Not a geography buff. I bunch the Marshall Islands, Christmas islands, Line Islands and can’t think the fourth common place or collection in SEAsia. Just me and my wording was wrong. Point being what you can’t prove it does not happen. But fact is there are hallmark death effects. And you ruling out such possibility out give me good laugh. But you do you.

Just because a substance is illegal means it can’t possibly be used? Are you literally saying such thing? Haha.

Edit. It would be nice if you stop putting words in my posts. Didn’t nice push cyanide as the bogey man. But again as stated above, you making it as if that’s all my posts stated. I would recommend you go back and read my posts.

You have reading skill issues. Worse than my geography issues! At least I admit to that. I’m done debating this point with you. Have a good night.

Cheers-

You really don't need to be pushing the cyanide agenda every time someone mentions a flame angel dying... it's getting tiresome. You really need to just move on and accept the fact that sometimes fish die. I don't blame every single fish death I have on cyanide just because I can't prove it isn't cyanide. That would be ridiculous.

 

[BloopFish]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/f...k-to-powerhead-and-dead.1137460/post-14003154
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...re-twice-in-two-months.1124469/#post-13801460

One of those posts is a guess (trigger fish) and the other he names "islands" and does not back up what islands he's talking about.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

You have no proof that cyanide actually killed those fish. You keep insisting this, but its more likely you have just killed the fish through other means. Flame angels do not come from the regions where Jay lists as cyanide being common. Sometimes you have to accept that you have made mistakes and let go of your ego.

What happened with flame angelfish is that the collection location changed when Hawaii closed to fish collection. Very few flames were actually caught in Hawaii, but huge numbers were transshipped through there from west pacific islands that used nets. Now - with Hawaii closed, flames are being caught in places like the Cook Islands, where cyanide use is suspect.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

https://fritzaquatics.com/products/coppersafe/

Fritz lists coppersafe as being fine to be used with fritz water conditioners. Within their line of water conditioners they also have ammonia "blocking" ones. I have used sodium thiosuflate with copper power and copper safe with no ill effect at high levels. I think its possible thiosulfate and other common dechlorinators may not be strong enough of a reducing agent to be doing much to chelated copper, but I think it is possible and easy to avoid the use of though.

As I mentioned, the evidence for this reaction is empirical, because you can’t easily test to differentiate between free and bound copper. However, that evidence definitely shows some correlation between reducing agent use and copper toxicity.

I don’t rely on manufacturer’s advice on matters like this - Fritz just bottles coppersafe from a formula they got from Mardel, which in turn came from some research in England in the 1970’s….Fritz has not run toxicity tests, they don’t have a lab.

I do know that complexed ammonia can be broken by reducing agents: back in the 1970’s the city I lived in switched to using chloramines to disinfect the water. That process binds ammonia with chlorine. They didn’t notify anyone. Hundreds of people ended water changes that week and lost their fish. Turns out, the dechlor was breaking the ammonia bond and the free ammonia was killing fish.