Flame angel acting weird after cooper

AH! I totally missed that you had combined Prime with Copper Power!

This is a potential issues that goes way underreported - any reducing agent, (Prime, dechlor, formalin, ammonia neutralizers, etc.) have the possibility of breaking the amine-copper bond, releasing free copper, that is then very toxic. The trouble is, there is no way to test this. The copper test kits also break the amine-copper bond and measures the total copper, and that amount is the same - bonded or free, but it is the free copper that is toxic!

Side note: I never used reducing agents with any copper products. That means my experience never has that variable added in to the equation.

Sorry that this happened to your fish!
Thank you definitely hard lesson to learn!

I think personally an update to should be made to use prime with any copper agent even power with extreme caution. I know others have stated it’s safe and I’m sure others may have had success but I feel in this cause caution is a better measure as the simple counter is to just not use prime or wait a day and then use copper power
 
Thank you definitely hard lesson to learn!

I think personally an update to should be made to use prime with any copper agent even power with extreme caution. I know others have stated it’s safe and I’m sure others may have had success but I feel in this cause caution is a better measure as the simple counter is to just not use prime or wait a day and then use copper power
It is actually clearly mentioned in the current quarantine protocol.

Day 2: Begin Copper Treatment
  • Add Coppersafe or copper power to the QT to achieve a concentration of 2.25 ppm over the course of 24 hours. This can be done in two doses 12 hours apart or multiple smaller doses if you prefer. Coppersafe will not be effective until a concentration over 2.0 ppm is present. A target of 2.25 ppm will allow for fluctuations without the risk of falling below the 2.0 ppm threshold. Hanna Copper checker is the most accurate test to use.
  • Never use ammonia removing products or other reducing agents (dechlorinator) when dosing copper. Most products bind copper with an amine to reduce toxicity to the fish. Reducing agents risk breaking that bond, releasing free copper that can harm the fish.
  • Feed and top off tank water normally.
 
It is actually clearly mentioned in the current quarantine protocol.
I wish I saw this I saw the other thread that stated prime and copper power are safe…as you can see in the thread plenty of reefers are disagreeing with me that prime and copper power don’t mix well despite again contacting a literally marine biologist and multiple LFS locations.

That and plenty of people saying the videos I sent were due to the velvet when again it’s pretty clear it was chemical toxicity especially for such an Acute case.


Not placing blame I should have done more research and trusted my gut but I think maybe that thread should be re-evaluated or have at least a caution warning.

Part of the hobby is to learn and some of that is trial and error and not intentional experiments.

Im just so torn over the fish, money and the fact they all got along super well together and my angels bonded that’s apprently not common in a smaller setup / QT

Thanks for the info below is the thread!

 
Not placing blame I should have done more research and trusted my gut but I think maybe that thread should be re-evaluated or have at least a caution warning.
The thread has a bold red warning from Jay Hemdal at the top from 2023 and isn't stickied anywhere as the current recommendation. Perhaps "Dose at your own risk" could be added at the end of the warning, though.

Very sorry about your fish, it looks like you've had some terrible luck with keeping flames.
 
The thread has a bold red warning from Jay Hemdal at the top from 2023 and isn't stickied anywhere as the current recommendation. Perhaps "Dose at your own risk" could be added at the end of the warning, though.

Very sorry about your fish, it looks like you've had some terrible luck with keeping flames.
They are my favorite and I somehow I get sick ones with flukes as they usually die before getting out of QT.. this one was super healthy apart from this scenario and another I had one did well for a year before I had a tank wipeout from an anemone getting stuck in my filter while I was away on a trip and it causes the death of my entire tank almost….

Still miss him named him Hank and he would let me pick him up and eat right out of my hand he was the best saltwater fish I’ve ever had

I may just give up on flames 😭.

Yea the label I saw but it said excess so I thought I was in the clear guess not lol but hopefully people learn from my experience and just don’t use prime with medications in any dose and go wITH RO or if you need to wait a day another prime is out of the system
 
Thank you definitely hard lesson to learn!

I think personally an update to should be made to use prime with any copper agent even power with extreme caution. I know others have stated it’s safe and I’m sure others may have had success but I feel in this cause caution is a better measure as the simple counter is to just not use prime or wait a day and then use copper power

The chemistry of reducing agents is really complicated, dose, product used, and amount of more available compounds for it to react with to all come into play. No way to predict the toxicity, if any, will be present.
 
The chemistry of reducing agents is really complicated, dose, product used, and amount of more available compounds for it to react with to all come into play. No way to predict the toxicity, if any, will be present.
Maybe l so but better to sir on the side of caution no?

I’d rather be told to not use something that has plenty of alternatives while using it can and now has risks versus not using it has 0 impact apart from maybe a minor very minor unconvince of using RO water or waiting a day before dosing
 
I wish I saw this I saw the other thread that stated prime and copper power are safe…as you can see in the thread plenty of reefers are disagreeing with me that prime and copper power don’t mix well despite again contacting a literally marine biologist and multiple LFS locations.

That and plenty of people saying the videos I sent were due to the velvet when again it’s pretty clear it was chemical toxicity especially for such an Acute case.


Not placing blame I should have done more research and trusted my gut but I think maybe that thread should be re-evaluated or have at least a caution warning.

Part of the hobby is to learn and some of that is trial and error and not intentional experiments.

Im just so torn over the fish, money and the fact they all got along super well together and my angels bonded that’s apprently not common in a smaller setup / QT

Thanks for the info below is the thread!

I haven't seem many people saying that they personally use this combination. Merely that there are articles stating some people have had success.
 
@‘Jay Hemdal

I thought I read that prime doesn’t reduce ammonia. (May help the fish deal with ammonia toxicity ?) if there porential risk with using with copper, why is this product even on the market it may not do anything and maybe toxic?
 
@‘Jay Hemdal

I thought I read that prime doesn’t reduce ammonia. (May help the fish deal with ammonia toxicity ?) if there porential risk with using with copper, why is this product even on the market it may not do anything and maybe toxic?
You're correct, Prime is not effective at mitigating high ammonia, here's a link to the research. Prime is, however, an effective dechlorinator, so it's got that going for it 🙃
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/prime-does-not-remove-ammonia.885857/
 
Last edited:
@‘Jay Hemdal

I thought I read that prime doesn’t reduce ammonia. (May help the fish deal with ammonia toxicity ?) if there porential risk with using with copper, why is this product even on the market it may not do anything and maybe toxic?

I haven’t tested Prime for removing ammonia, so I’ll defer to others. It is a reducing agent though, so you need to be cautious using it with amine chelated copper. People use it with copper with no issues, then once in awhile, we see reactions. It may be people are overdosing it in those cases, or that the Prime doesn’t have anything else to react with, so shouldn’t have been added on the first place. Also, the amount of free copper that can be released seems to vary, so some fish are not affected at all, yet sensitive fish may have issues.
 
Copper did not kill your fish. I have had many flames in copper, and coral beauties. I had two die that shook their heads like yours did. And conclusion was possibly cyanide poisoning. Because the one I saw in the last moment went around is strange circles, and odd swimming before dying in an instant after that ordeal. The second one I didn’t see how it passed. But both had the same head shake your fish had.

Having read through many of the posts.

What are you using to measure copper? Just the Salifert? What are you using to measure ammonia? API? How are you dosing prime? As in device. Just the cap or measuring it by the bottle instructions?

I have QT’ed countless amounts of angles of all types, not a single issue with copper. Have QT’ed as much as 18-20 fish in one tank at once (I will not recommend this! Only reason was a ich outbreak that started infecting all the fish big time). Angles, tangs, clowns, wrasses. Never had copper issues. And have even done prime when I could not get a WC that day. No deaths. Now I never just dosed at free will. I always use measuring devices that I made sure are accurate in reading by using a precision calibrated graduated cylinder to verify my syringes.

For the past two years I have not even done ramp up for copper, I use copper power, and dose to 2.3-2.4ppm and put fish in directly. Currently have two Blue damsels, three dwarfs angles (flame, CB, and a golden angle) , and a powder blue, and a black cap basslet, in a 20 long. All are eating, no stress, and living life in medicated water. All were ich infected from the tank they were in prior.

My theory is prime masks ammonia, ammonia never leaves the system because it literally has no way to leave it, and then spikes back with a vengeance, once the prime is not working any longer. Had a skimmer been present it might have helped. But most QT systems are not big enough or have a possibility of a skimmer to be added. Either way I have seen prime when I would dose it, again emergency use only, only hold back ammonia for about 24 hours no more. I’m not a chemist to be able to tell you in detail what takes place 100%, but it would seem prime binds it temporary then after about 24 (was the case once for me), it comes back because it’s not being taken out of the system. So I never would wait up the 24 hour mark. I did what I had to get a good 50% water change for the tank before the 24 hour period.

My new method is now seeding Polyplab Genesis rock in a healthy disease free tank. And boy does the bacteria work off these rocks in QT tanks at maintaining ammonia levels. Other super nice thing they don’t hold on to chemicals or meds. So when dosing copper, no absorption. Dosing prazi nothing is going to stay in the system, same with antibiotics if needed. But you get the benifit of large amounts of bacteria population. I now even have loads of pods in my ongoing QT thanks! It’s nuts! Have not seen anything like this. The rocks really do work.
 
Copper did not kill your fish. I have had many flames in copper, and coral beauties. I had two die that shook their heads like yours did. And conclusion was possibly cyanide poisoning. Because the one I saw in the last moment went around is strange circles, and odd swimming before dying in an instant after that ordeal. The second one I didn’t see how it passed. But both had the same head shake your fish had.

Having read through many of the posts.

What are you using to measure copper? Just the Salifert? What are you using to measure ammonia? API? How are you dosing prime? As in device. Just the cap or measuring it by the bottle instructions?

I have QT’ed countless amounts of angles of all types, not a single issue with copper. Have QT’ed as much as 18-20 fish in one tank at once (I will not recommend this! Only reason was a ich outbreak that started infecting all the fish big time). Angles, tangs, clowns, wrasses. Never had copper issues. And have even done prime when I could not get a WC that day. No deaths. Now I never just dosed at free will. I always use measuring devices that I made sure are accurate in reading by using a precision calibrated graduated cylinder to verify my syringes.

For the past two years I have not even done ramp up for copper, I use copper power, and dose to 2.3-2.4ppm and put fish in directly. Currently have two Blue damsels, three dwarfs angles (flame, CB, and a golden angle) , and a powder blue, and a black cap basslet, in a 20 long. All are eating, no stress, and living life in medicated water. All were ich infected from the tank they were in prior.

My theory is prime masks ammonia, ammonia never leaves the system because it literally has no way to leave it, and then spikes back with a vengeance, once the prime is not working any longer. Had a skimmer been present it might have helped. But most QT systems are not big enough or have a possibility of a skimmer to be added. Either way I have seen prime when I would dose it, again emergency use only, only hold back ammonia for about 24 hours no more. I’m not a chemist to be able to tell you in detail what takes place 100%, but it would seem prime binds it temporary then after about 24 (was the case once for me), it comes back because it’s not being taken out of the system. So I never would wait up the 24 hour mark. I did what I had to get a good 50% water change for the tank before the 24 hour period.

My new method is now seeding Polyplab Genesis rock in a healthy disease free tank. And boy does the bacteria work off these rocks in QT tanks at maintaining ammonia levels. Other super nice thing they don’t hold on to chemicals or meds. So when dosing copper, no absorption. Dosing prazi nothing is going to stay in the system, same with antibiotics if needed. But you get the benifit of large amounts of bacteria population. I now even have loads of pods in my ongoing QT thanks! It’s nuts! Have not seen anything like this. The rocks really do work.
Oh wow, I've heard of Polyplab Genesis rock before, but had no idea it didn't absorb any medications. Why does nobody talk about it? That's a complete game changer! I'm going to order a few and use them instead of sponges in my QT from now on.
 
Oh wow, I've heard of Polyplab Genesis rock before, but had no idea it didn't absorb any medications. Why does nobody talk about it? That's a complete game changer! I'm going to order a few and use them instead of sponges in my QT from now on.
This is quite interesting to me too. I typically don't like or use any of the various bio bricks as some for sure have been known to leach heavy metals. But these bricks from Polyplab claim to be ceramic, totally leach free, and basically totally inert:
https://www.polyplab.com/products/genesis-rock
 
My new method is now seeding Polyplab Genesis rock in a healthy disease free tank. And boy does the bacteria work off these rocks in QT tanks at maintaining ammonia levels. Other super nice thing they don’t hold on to chemicals or meds. So when dosing copper, no absorption. Dosing prazi nothing is going to stay in the system, same with antibiotics if needed. But you get the benifit of large amounts of bacteria population. I now even have loads of pods in my ongoing QT thanks! It’s nuts! Have not seen anything like this. The rocks really do work.
Do you just place the Polyplab rock on the bottom of your QT tank, or you do have a sump or some other high-flow area where you place the rock?
 
Do you just place the Polyplab rock on the bottom of your QT tank, or you do have a sump or some other high-flow area where you place the rock?

I’m planning on doing a longer write up, or video on how run my QT tanks. It might help some people that do run QT tanks.

But yes they stay in the tank with the fish. And it’s how I ended up with a tone of pods in both of the QT thanks I have been running for a year now. I have not shut one of them down for that long! Run a ato system on them to. Tested copper when I initially dosed with the fish that I listed in my post and had 2.35ppm after two weeks tested and it was 2.33ppm. It’s a crazy product to use for QT. Pricey but the best if you ask me.

I now have done probidio in the newer tank and it wasn’t instant cycle almost. Good stuff for sure. I have 36 slabs in my 300 system, Genesis rocks that is, and when I need one I grab it in the QT tank it goes seeded, and if need be a extra dose of bacteria and tanks thriving. You end up introducing pods in the system if you have pods in the system you seed the rocks in. For me it’s a win. Have a mandarin goby for my brother that I’m QTing right now, yes I know they have nice thick mucus layers which means that they likely don’t get much disease. But not chancing it. And he has food in the tank haha. This one’s a super tiny guy. So more than enough.
 
Oh wow, I've heard of Polyplab Genesis rock before, but had no idea it didn't absorb any medications. Why does nobody talk about it? That's a complete game changer! I'm going to order a few and use them instead of sponges in my QT from now on.

Yes they work wonders being its high heat treatment to make them, so they don’t absorb anything. I know because just weeks before your poor File fish had their episodes, my flame had an eye issues. And two doses of kana healed him up. If that rock absorbed much of it, it would also absorb copper. And the fish would not have healed. The poor dudes eye was wrecked but kana took care of it for him.
 
Off subject, but I also have a flame angel which had a really nasty bacterial infection, including bilateral Popeyes and a white coating over the front 20% of his body. He wasn’t swimming. He wasn’t eating two treatments of Kana Plex and he was back to his old self took about a week He must’ve had a gram-negative bacteria and it hit it just at the right time with good susceptibilities.
 

IF YOU HAD TO OPERATE EVERYTHING ELSE MANUALLY, WHICH AUTOMATED SYSTEM WOULD YOU KEEP?

  • Auto top-off

    Votes: 60 57.7%
  • Automated dosing

    Votes: 6 5.8%
  • Mechanical filtration / roller filter

    Votes: 4 3.8%
  • Automated water testing

    Votes: 3 2.9%
  • Automatic feeding

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • Lighting schedule

    Votes: 20 19.2%
  • Controller and remote monitoring

    Votes: 4 3.8%
  • Leak detection and emergency shutoff

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • Automatic water changes

    Votes: 3 2.9%
  • None. I prefer to operate everything manually

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Something else (explain in the comments)

    Votes: 1 1.0%
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