Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

[Dan_P]

Last August we discussed data that cast doubt on the ability of Prime to remove ammonia from artificial seawater.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/

Since then, I continued the search for evidence that Prime removed ammonia from artificial seawater. Because the total ammonia test we use in the hobby is inactivated by Prime, I used free ammonia sensing films: Seachem Alert, Pacific Sentry Aqua Sensor and the Seneye ammonia sensing slide.

Ammonia sensing films are semi-permeable membranes with embedded dye molecules. When the film is placed in a solution containing ammonia, free ammonia diffuses through the membrane and reacts with the dye molecule, changing its color. The amount of ammonia entering the film and reacting with dye molecules is proportional to the concentration of free ammonia. Since visually judging color intensity is prone to error, I assessed the color change of the sensor film by measuring the change in reflected light intensity (600-625 nm) with a visible spectrometer equipped with a fiber optic cable.

Experimental Protocol

Ammonia sensing films were placed in either an ammonia solution in Instant Ocean or an ammonia solution in Instant Ocean containing Prime. Five or ten times the recommended amount was used. After a fixed period of time, the sensing film was removed from the test solution and the reflected light spectrum recorded. After each use, the sensing film was allowed to recover to its ammonia free condition.

Results

No sensing film detected a statistically significant removal of ammonia either at 0.5 or 2.0 ppm total ammonia 2 hours after adding Prime to the ammonia solution. The graph below shows data for the calibration of the Seneye ammonia sensor (X’s indicate the addition of 0.12 ppm total ammonia). After the last ammonia addition, the slide was allowed to recover. During this recovery period, ten times the recommended amount of Prime was added to the ammonia solution and allowed to react two hours. The recovered Seneye slide was then placed into the reacted ammonia+Prime solution. The orange circle is the response of the ammonia sensing film to the Prime+ammonia solution, indicating no change to the final ammonia concentration.

This is just one of dozens of experiments where I measured no ammonia removal. At no time was there an indication that Prime removes ammonia. I also looked at another water conditioner, Cloramx, which also claims to remove ammonia and it too failed to show any ammonia removal capability, even at thirty eight times the recommended dose. I am beginning to wonder about the credibility of all water conditioners that claim to remove ammonia. The next step is for someone with a single ion electrode to continue the search for the elusive ammonia removal.

 

[brandon429]

Dan can you discuss please some alternate mechanisms for system protection that may be functioning but unaccounted for when prime is dosed, you’ve shown it to be quite ineffective in two different works now.

it’s interesting to uncover the actual safety mechanics we didn’t know were employed given the apparent nonfunction of this product.


reef chemistry always has fascinating hidden offsets. We get to exclude nitrite easily in display tank reefing, but for freshwater tanks it’s a killer/ chloride chemistry trick what are some prime replacement physics that reef tankers may be getting naturally but don’t know it, like the nitrite deal

 

[SMSREEF]

Last August we discussed data that cast doubt on the ability of Prime to remove ammonia from artificial seawater.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/

Since then, I continued the search for evidence that Prime removed ammonia from artificial seawater. Because the total ammonia test we use in the hobby is inactivated by Prime, I used free ammonia sensing films: Seachem Alert, Pacific Sentry Aqua Sensor and the Seneye ammonia sensing slide.

Ammonia sensing films are semi-permeable membranes with embedded dye molecules. When the film is placed in a solution containing ammonia, free ammonia diffuses through the membrane and reacts with the dye molecule, changing its color. The amount of ammonia entering the film and reacting with dye molecules is proportional to the concentration of free ammonia. Since visually judging color intensity is prone to error, I assessed the color change of the sensor film by measuring the change in reflected light intensity (600-625 nm) with a visible spectrometer equipped with a fiber optic cable.

Experimental Protocol

Ammonia sensing films were placed in either an ammonia solution in Instant Ocean or an ammonia solution in Instant Ocean containing Prime. Five or ten times the recommended amount was used. After a fixed period of time, the sensing film was removed from the test solution and the reflected light spectrum recorded. After each use, the sensing film was allowed to recover to its ammonia free condition.

Results

No sensing film detected a statistically significant removal of ammonia either at 0.5 or 2.0 ppm total ammonia 2 hours after adding Prime to the ammonia solution. The graph below shows data for the calibration of the Seneye ammonia sensor (X’s indicate the addition of 0.12 ppm total ammonia). After the last ammonia addition, the slide was allowed to recover. During this recovery period, ten times the recommended amount of Prime was added to the ammonia solution and allowed to react two hours. The recovered Seneye slide was then placed into the reacted ammonia+Prime solution. The orange circle is the response of the ammonia sensing film to the Prime+ammonia solution, indicating no change to the final ammonia concentration.

This is just one of dozens of experiments where I measured no ammonia removal. At no time was there an indication that Prime removes ammonia. I also looked at another water conditioner, Cloramx, which also claims to remove ammonia and it too failed to show any ammonia removal capability, even at thirty eight times the recommended dose. I am beginning to wonder about the credibility of all water conditioners that claim to remove ammonia. The next step is for someone with a single ion electrode to continue the search for the elusive ammonia removal.

I don’t understand what you are trying to prove. Seachem does not claim that Prime removes ammonia, only that it binds it.
“Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly.”

Seachem - Prime

www.seachem.com

 

[sfin52]

Prime doesn't remove ammonia it converts to a non lethal form from my understand. tests still pick up ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

Then why didn’t the toxicity move down from the higher setting it’s charted at


why not bind the ammonia to zero ppm when overdosed?

 

[piranhaman00]

What? No one says prime removes ammonia, prime works by turning ammonia into ammonium, which is far less toxic to aquarium life.

I am not sure what this experiment was for? There is only one test kit that differentiates between the two I believe it’s seachem.

 

[SMSREEF]

Then why didn’t the toxicity move down from the higher setting it’s charted at

I saw nothing that showed whether the ammonia that Seneye measured was toxic or not. Just that it read a certain level of ammonia.

why not bind the ammonia to zero ppm when overdosed?

If Seachem is to be trusted, the ammonia is still there, just bound and no longer toxic for 48 hours.

Adding more prime will not get rid of it, only bacteria or other organisms that use ammonia as a nitrogen source will.

 

[Dan_P]

Dan can you discuss please some alternate mechanisms for system protection that may be functioning but unaccounted for when prime is dosed, you’ve shown it to be quite ineffective in two different works now.

it’s interesting to uncover the actual safety mechanics we didn’t know were employed given the apparent nonfunction of this product.


reef chemistry always has fascinating hidden offsets. We get to exclude nitrite easily in display tank reefing, but for freshwater tanks it’s a killer/ chloride chemistry trick what are some prime replacement physics that reef tankers may be getting naturally but don’t know it, like the nitrite deal

pH is a strong factor in controlling the amount of free ammonia. Below is the Red Sea ammonia test kit insert.
You can see how small the amount of free ammonia that exists below pH 8. I suspect many folks with high total ammonia test results and living healthy fish have pH to thank, not a water conditioner. How many folks just starting an aquarium know the pH of their water?Prime did not have a large effect on pH in my experiments, even at 10 times the recommended dose, making it difficult to say why it might work. Maybe it doesn’t but pH saved the day for many, many customers.

 

[Malcontent]

What? No one says prime removes ammonia, prime works by turning ammonia into ammonium, which is far less toxic to aquarium life.

I am not sure what this experiment was for? There is only one test kit that differentiates between the two I believe it’s seachem.

Is it possible to convert ammonia into ammonium without lowering pH? And Seachem's own explanation is that it converts ammonia to something that isn't ammonium (an imine/imidium/???).

I suspect many folks with high total ammonia test results and living healthy fish have pH to thank, not a water conditioner.

Prime is great at detoxifying things that are already at non-toxic levels:

• heavy metals
• ammonia
• nitrite
• nitrate

 

[brandon429]

Does prime lower pH of a soln


I wonder if it’s acidic or basic, responding to the statement above mentioning nh3/4 stasis. Seems overall pH would need to shift to cause that, if piranha’s assertion is how it works


your chart plotted no change it seems, clearly.

 

[jrill]

'well that was a waste of time.

 

[Surfandturf]

All of these people on here advocating for Prime need to stop. The product is and has always been garbage. You know what Prime is? Its that magic elixir that a crap LFS sells to customers and tells them that they can start a reef tank on day one. I have seen it many times and I always speak up. Prime is a shortcut and it doesn't do a very good job.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is it possible to convert ammonia into ammonium without lowering pH? And Seachem's own explanation is that it converts ammonia to something that isn't ammonium (an imine/imidium/???).



Prime is great at detoxifying things that are already at non-toxic levels:

• heavy metals
• ammonia
• nitrite
• nitrate

No on the first question (except organic forms which this is not), and Seachem's statement is not using any sort of interpretable chemical terminology.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t understand what you are trying to prove. Seachem does not claim that Prime removes ammonia, only that it binds it.
“Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly.”

Seachem - Prime

www.seachem.com

The reality is more complicated. Folks using this line of reasoning are making some very significant assumptions, that I doubt are actually true.

Most importantly, that each of these tests binds the "bound" form of the ammonia equally well with the unbound form, and that the color changes are the same.

I think that is highly unlikely, but without Seachem providing any interpretable statements about what is actually formed, it is not possible to prove it.

Seachem actually recommends a specific test, and when that specific test is used, folks ALSO REPORT NO DIFFERENCE:

5.5.3.2.1. Prime, Safe and Ammonia

Seachem's Prime and Safe water conditioners do NOT detoxify ammonia, not even temporarily.

aquariumscience.org

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Last August we discussed data that cast doubt on the ability of Prime to remove ammonia from artificial seawater.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/

Since then, I continued the search for evidence that Prime removed ammonia from artificial seawater. Because the total ammonia test we use in the hobby is inactivated by Prime, I used free ammonia sensing films: Seachem Alert, Pacific Sentry Aqua Sensor and the Seneye ammonia sensing slide.

Ammonia sensing films are semi-permeable membranes with embedded dye molecules. When the film is placed in a solution containing ammonia, free ammonia diffuses through the membrane and reacts with the dye molecule, changing its color. The amount of ammonia entering the film and reacting with dye molecules is proportional to the concentration of free ammonia. Since visually judging color intensity is prone to error, I assessed the color change of the sensor film by measuring the change in reflected light intensity (600-625 nm) with a visible spectrometer equipped with a fiber optic cable.

Experimental Protocol

Ammonia sensing films were placed in either an ammonia solution in Instant Ocean or an ammonia solution in Instant Ocean containing Prime. Five or ten times the recommended amount was used. After a fixed period of time, the sensing film was removed from the test solution and the reflected light spectrum recorded. After each use, the sensing film was allowed to recover to its ammonia free condition.

Results

No sensing film detected a statistically significant removal of ammonia either at 0.5 or 2.0 ppm total ammonia 2 hours after adding Prime to the ammonia solution. The graph below shows data for the calibration of the Seneye ammonia sensor (X’s indicate the addition of 0.12 ppm total ammonia). After the last ammonia addition, the slide was allowed to recover. During this recovery period, ten times the recommended amount of Prime was added to the ammonia solution and allowed to react two hours. The recovered Seneye slide was then placed into the reacted ammonia+Prime solution. The orange circle is the response of the ammonia sensing film to the Prime+ammonia solution, indicating no change to the final ammonia concentration.

This is just one of dozens of experiments where I measured no ammonia removal. At no time was there an indication that Prime removes ammonia. I also looked at another water conditioner, Cloramx, which also claims to remove ammonia and it too failed to show any ammonia removal capability, even at thirty eight times the recommended dose. I am beginning to wonder about the credibility of all water conditioners that claim to remove ammonia. The next step is for someone with a single ion electrode to continue the search for the elusive ammonia removal.

Thank you for doing these experiments, Dan.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

'well that was a waste of time.

What was? The unsubstantiated support of a product that neither provides evidence nor any plausible mechanism?

 

[Cell]

So do we think Prime actually works, just not in the way described by Seachem or is it truly snake oil? I don't have much experience using it, but have recommended it to others.

 

[SMSREEF]

The reality is more complicated. Folks using this line of reasoning are making some very significant assumptions, that I doubt are actually true.

Most importantly, that each of these tests binds the "bound" form of the ammonia equally well with the unbound form, and that the color changes are the same.

I think that is highly unlikely, but without Seachem providing any interpretable statements about what is actually formed, it is not possible to prove it.

Seachem actually recommends a specific test, and when that specific test is used, folks ALSO REPORT NO DIFFERENCE:

5.5.3.2.1. Prime, Safe and Ammonia

Seachem's Prime and Safe water conditioners do NOT detoxify ammonia, not even temporarily.

aquariumscience.org

I just don’t understand running an experiment to disprove something the company clearly is not claiming…

Since we have no mechanism of action from seachem, there is no way anyone can run an experiment to determine if ammonia is bound and in a nontoxic form. It may be time for an experiment on fish. Yes, it’s not quite ethical to harm them by placing in a tank of ammonia and also a tank of ammonia and prime.

But if prime is snake oil, many of us may be killing many more fish thinking prime detoxified ammonia.

And if it’s not snake oil, and you all are discouraging people from using it by claiming it doesn’t work, fish may die too. I almost stopped using it when I do TTM due to the last thread, but then thought better of it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just don’t understand running an experiment to disprove something the company clearly is not claiming…

Since we have no mechanism of action from seachem, there is no way anyone can run an experiment to determine if ammonia is bound and in a nontoxic form. It may be time for an experiment on fish. Yes, it’s not quite ethical to harm them by placing in a tank of ammonia and also a tank of ammonia and prime.

But if prime is snake oil, many of us may be killing many more fish thinking prime detoxified ammonia.

And if it’s not snake oil, and you all are discouraging people from using it by claiming it doesn’t work, fish may die too. I almost stopped using it when I do TTM due to the last thread, but then thought better of it.

IMO, it does not look promising that Prime works. Couple that with lack of any data or interpretable chemical mechanism and I tend to think it does not, but am open to Seachem proving otherwise.

Understanding whether it works to reduce toxicity or not is very useful, as we would all agree.

Folks, including Dan, are testing for ammonia in many different ways, some of which Seachem itself recommends as valid.

Dan used Seachem alert badge and other gas sensing technologies. Seachem states (with my bolding):

"
Does Ammonia Alert® properly detect toxic ammonia in the presence of Prime?
A: If the Prime® has not complexed with the ammonia yet it will detect it, but it won't detect it if the Prime® has already complexed it (which makes sense because when Prime® has complexed with the ammonia it is no longer toxic). If you want to know the total ammonia level (free, ionized and complexed) you would need to run a Total Ammonia Test (like with our MultiTest Ammonia."

"However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit; it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (total ammonia is both free ammonia and non-toxic ionized forms of ammonia)."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just don’t understand running an experiment to disprove something the company clearly is not claiming…

Since we have no mechanism of action from seachem, there is no way anyone can run an experiment to determine if ammonia is bound and in a nontoxic form. It may be time for an experiment on fish. Yes, it’s not quite ethical to harm them by placing in a tank of ammonia and also a tank of ammonia and prime.

But if prime is snake oil, many of us may be killing many more fish thinking prime detoxified ammonia.

And if it’s not snake oil, and you all are discouraging people from using it by claiming it doesn’t work, fish may die too. I almost stopped using it when I do TTM due to the last thread, but then thought better of it.

No, they do claim it works, exactly the opposite of what Dan observed. See their claims above. Alert badge and gas sensing technologies work to detect ammonia even when prime is used. Dan showed no decline using both of these.