Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

[SMSREEF]

No, they do claim it works, exactly the opposite of what Dan observed. See their claims above. Alert badge and gas sensing technologies work to detect ammonia even when prime is used. Dan showed no decline using both of these.

I am not one to stand up for companies making claims that cannot be substantiated. I think we have far too much of that in the aquarium industry. And if Prime is another example, shame on them because they must have caused the death of a lot of animals.

However words do mater, and “Remove” is not something Seachem claims.

Understanding whether it works to reduce toxicity or not is very useful, as we would all agree.

Edited. I read this statement wrong.
This is the main reason why many people (including myself) use it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not agree. This is the main reason why many people (including myself) use it.

You do not agree with this statement??? Seriously?

"Understanding whether it works to reduce toxicity or not is very useful, as we would all agree."

You do not think it important to know that it reduces toxicity?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am not one to stand up for companies making claims that cannot be substantiated. I think we have far too much of that in the aquarium industry. And if Prime is another example, shame on them because they must have caused the death of a lot of animals.

However words do mater, and “Remove” is not something Seachem claims.


I do not agree. This is the main reason why many people (including myself) use it.

They state explicitly that the Seachem alert bad correctly shows the toxic ammonia, even when Prime is used. Same for gas exchange tests.

Dan showed explicitly that Prime did not reduce the ammonia using the Seachem alert badge, as well as other gas exchange tests.

What is missing in that logic?

It DOES NOT do what Seachem claims in the hands of Dan and some others that I linked.

Cause for concern, IMO.

 

[SMSREEF]

You do not agree with this statement??? Seriously?

"Understanding whether it works to reduce toxicity or not is very useful, as we would all agree."

You do not think it important to know that it reduces toxicity?

I’m a bit dislexic this morning and thought you were saying it is not useful.
Reduced Toxicity is the only reason I use it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m a bit dislexic this morning and thought you were saying it is not useful.
Reduced Toxicity is the only reason I use it.

OK, thanks.

 

[Malcontent]

The next step is for someone with a single ion electrode to continue the search for the elusive ammonia removal.

What would the use of an ISE accomplish? They're just pH meters behind a hydrophobic membrane like the Seneye/Seachem/Pacific Sentry sensors.

However words do mater, and “Remove” is not something Seachem claims.

Maybe that was a poor choice of words by Dan but it's really looking like Prime doesn't detoxify ammonia.

Question for Randy: is there an ideal way to test this? I'm guessing ion chromatography is out. ISEs may be another option...is there any other method?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What would the use of an ISE accomplish? They're just pH meters behind a hydrophobic membrane like the Seneye/Seachem/Pacific Sentry sensors.





Maybe that was a poor choice of words by Dan but it's really looking like Prime doesn't detoxify ammonia.

Question for Randy: is there an ideal way to test this? I'm guessing ion chromatography is out. ISEs may be another option...is there any other method?

IMO, the definitive way is an ammonia tox test with controlled pH. It rules out all possible interpretations and/or misunderstandings. It's the only thing anyone cares about.

Ion chromatography would also be a good way to detect free ammonia/ammonium, but one could argue that the conditions used or required may render the complex of ammonia and Prime unstable.

 

[Dan_P]

What would the use of an ISE accomplish? They're just pH meters behind a hydrophobic membrane like the Seneye/Seachem/Pacific Sentry sensors.





Maybe that was a poor choice of words by Dan but it's really looking like Prime doesn't detoxify ammonia.

Question for Randy: is there an ideal way to test this? I'm guessing ion chromatography is out. ISEs may be another option...is there any other method?

There seems to be two types of claims. Cloramx claims the removal of ammonia. Prime is a bit more nuanced. It claims to detoxify ammonia by converting it to a safe non-toxic. In either case, the chemical interpretation is the same. The concentration of NH3 must be observed to go down if these products are really doing their job. The ammonia sensing films do not show any decrease in ammonia concentration. These sensors are pretty good but they probably will not replace ISE’s for serious work and that is where I sense we have arrived. There is serious doubt about water conditioner claims.

With the credibility of an ISE, repeating the lack of ammonia removal by Prime and Cloramx from a saltwater solution of ammonia puts an end to the debate. If the ISE detects substantial reduction in ammonia, then we will have fun pondering how water conditioners interfere with ammonia sensing films but not an ISE.

Let me know if you want details for my experimental conditions.

 

[jrill]

What was? The unsubstantiated support of a product that neither provides evidence nor any plausible mechanism?

Because it says right on the bottle that it detoxifies ammonia. They don't claim to remove it.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the write up dan - and Thanks for doing the experiments. 1. I'm not surprised. 2. I'm planning a little 2 Prime experiments as well - 1 with feeder fish (that I will then use for food (fish food, not my food)) - so it will be an 'in-vivo' experiment. The second Will use Seachem alerts starting with ever increasing levels of ammonia.

One potential with your data - in a personal communication with Seneye and Seachem, Prime interferes with the use of the Seneye and the alert) - and its not recommended to use the Seneye within 24 hours of dosing.

I also know of the experiments Randy mentioned - and Seachem does recommend using one of their tests for free ammonia. But again - those (from my reading) can be affected by 2 things - high levels of ammonia (The levels In @Dan_P's experiments were not high) - I'm not sure about the level of Prime that might or might not affect them. (Though Seachem states up to 5x dosing can be used - I'm not sure if that affects the discs)

BUT one thing is clear based on these data - There is no evidence that Prime lowers free ammonia levels using these tests You did an excellent write-up.

 

[MnFish1]

FYI - just got off the phone with Seachem. They re-affirmed that 1) using a 5x concentration of prime will not affect the 'Multi-test' - and that 2) the multi-test should indeed show a decrease in free ammonia.

10x is a dose that I think can affect the slides themselves.
With the Seachem Alert - you are supposed to allow it to equilibrate in water for 'a few days'. The measurement of free ammonia takes 15 minutes, whereas a decrease in free ammonia is measured at 4 hours. (So - depending on the order you used - you may not have seen any decrease at 2 hours)

As part of my Prime experiment - I will use the Seachem Multitest - (you did not use that correct Dan?)

 

[MnFish1]

What would the use of an ISE accomplish? They're just pH meters behind a hydrophobic membrane like the Seneye/Seachem/Pacific Sentry sensors.





Maybe that was a poor choice of words by Dan but it's really looking like Prime doesn't detoxify ammonia.

Question for Randy: is there an ideal way to test this? I'm guessing ion chromatography is out. ISEs may be another option...is there any other method?

IMHO, as discussed in the other experiment - I am not sure its correct to say 'Prime does not detoxify ammonia' without doing in-vivo tests.

I think it is fair to say that using a Seneye and a Seachem alert badge - that thus far there is no reduction.

I've been trying to design some tests for this - for a while now - and have contacted both Seneye and Seachem for information.

One problem - The Seneye is affected by Prime (its not recommended to be used with Prime).

Another - The Seneye membrane can be damaged by high levels of free ammonia, higher than normal pH, etc.

Lastly - many companies are not too keen about giving out 'trade secrets'.

 

[MnFish1]

In either case, the chemical interpretation is the same. The concentration of NH3 must be observed to go down if these products are really doing their job.

This I do not believe is absolutely 'true' - but may very well be true. It is possible by a number of mechanisms - for a chemical to still be 'present' in a sample in in vitro, but be non-toxic 'in vivo'. Your tests (especially the pacific sentry - which supposedly is not affected by ammonia altering chemicals) certainly seem to show that free ammonia levels do not drop.

 

[RipVanWinkle]

Good read thanks Dan

 

[Malcontent]

This I do not believe is absolutely 'true' - but may very well be true. It is possible by a number of mechanisms - for a chemical to still be 'present' in a sample in in vitro, but be non-toxic 'in vivo'. Your tests (especially the pacific sentry - which supposedly is not affected by ammonia altering chemicals) certainly seem to show that free ammonia levels do not drop.

Well, if this is how gills work:

then it's basically the same as the hydrophobic PTFE membrane covering those sensor discs and also at the tip of ammonia selective electrodes.

So to "detoxify" ammonia by disabling its ability to diffuse through gill membranes would also lead it to not being detected by these free ammonia sensors.

 

[brandon429]

I support feeder fish studies. the symptoms should manifest clearly as toxicity rises, merely getting to know what those look like when directly tied to free ammonia levels gives valuable feedback on trigger levels and actual symptoms which impacts work threads ranging from cycling to rip cleaning to accuracy in ammonia testing

it’s not like people who do experiments here are doing them flippantly, or for anything other than honing reef practice.

I support fish burn studies because they’re being used to test a 911 emergency doser everyone in the hobby (save for a few readers specifically here) uses or has on standby


if that doser doesn’t provide 911 services then we need to focus on what does. To save fish

Fish + increased levels of ammonia and a known pH, a validated non color kit pH, probe accepted as accurate pH, until obvious symptoms show and all that charted carefully is good for the science because a convincing reason to test is provided above. Reasonable doubt


it can help reduce fish loss when findings are applied to various work threads where cash and time and reef investment are on the line


the info may even help disease expression timing / loose guess but at least begins a baseline measure for irritation behavior. We never get this test where strictly ammonia is the known aggressor, it’s by and large fish disease or other issues beyond ammonia out in the forums. I think this last portion plays to Dans claims, that by and large our hobby doesn’t really see elevated nh3 supplied to fish, our surface area and inoculants are this good. Flinch dosing of prime didn’t make it the saving action.

recent polls at least show most ammonia testers aren’t factoring the nh3 aspect when reacting to tests, so lots of prime is flinch dosed. we see nearly daily ammonia concern threads that never pan out when pressed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Because it says right on the bottle that it detoxifies ammonia. They don't claim to remove it.

Dig deeper.

As I posted here, Seachem claims that free toxic ammonia is correctly read by both the Seachem Alert badge and ammonia gas sensing devices in presence of Prime, and the Prime reduces the free toxic ammonia.

Dan and others that have tested it in the past (which I linked one) do not support their claim.

 

[MnFish1]

As I posted here, Seachem claims that free toxic ammonia is correctly read by both the Seachem Alert badge and ammonia gas sensing devices in presence of Prime, and the Prime reduces the free toxic ammonia.

As I posted here, Seneye - one of the measuring devices does not recommend its use during Prime treatment (Their words - on the phone). They also said that at higher amounts of free ammonia the seneye becomes less and less accurate - and in prolonged high ammonia time periods - the slide becomes stained and damaged.

I do not believe you can use a Seachem alert badge - to determine whether free ammonia is dropping - BUT - according to Seachem - and verified this AM - the multi-test (which I think Taricha tested) - should. (I have one on order).

The problem I see with all of the testing - is that none of it proves Prime does or does not DETOXIFY ammonia. The testing strongly suggests that it does not eliminate free ammonia. The test Dan did with the Pacific Ammonia brand (can't remember it exactly) - seems to be the most 'accurate' - in this regard (and on their website - says - that there shoudl be very few interfering substances. (Then again so does Seachem). It remains an interesting discussion - and much appreciated. I almost bought some prime for my discus tank - I tried a new food - which they didnt like - woke up to cloudy water - and one dead small fish(out of 40).

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Maybe I don't read labels carefully enough... I've only used Prime to dechlorinate water. If I think there's an ammonia problem, I'd use Amquel, AmGuard, etc., or add Stability.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As I posted here, Seneye - one of the measuring devices does not recommend its use during Prime treatment (Their words - on the phone). They also said that at higher amounts of free ammonia the seneye becomes less and less accurate - and in prolonged high ammonia time periods - the slide becomes stained and damaged.

I do not believe you can use a Seachem alert badge - to determine whether free ammonia is dropping - BUT - according to Seachem - and verified this AM - the multi-test (which I think Taricha tested) - should. (I have one on order).

The problem I see with all of the testing - is that none of it proves Prime does or does not DETOXIFY ammonia. The testing strongly suggests that it does not eliminate free ammonia. The test Dan did with the Pacific Ammonia brand (can't remember it exactly) - seems to be the most 'accurate' - in this regard (and on their website - says - that there shoudl be very few interfering substances. (Then again so does Seachem). It remains an interesting discussion - and much appreciated. I almost bought some prime for my discus tank - I tried a new food - which they didnt like - woke up to cloudy water - and one dead small fish(out of 40).

Why disregard Seachem alert badge result?

Maybe Dan can post the procedure used with it and the results.