Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P and @Randy Holmes-Farley

This article shows up in another forum as a prove that Prime works

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/30020-a-brief-history-of-prime/

Any comments?

Sincerely Lasse

This is a rehash of many reviews. No new information. Sounds like something Seachem would spend time doing. Some supporting information seems misleading or a distraction at least. For some of the quoted studies, Taricha and I have shown where each have problems which call into question the conclusions of ammonia removal from solution. The Cloram-X patent is a lesson in “don’t use patent information as a source of scientific information.” Using Seachem’s own free ammonia detection film and several others, ammonia removal was never detected after using any ammonia detoxifying product.

 

[Malcontent]

Here's one study cited as evidence that Prime detoxifies nitrite:

https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/rcm.4307

In environmental water samples that contain both nitrate and nitrite, isotopic analysis of nitrate alone by all currently available methods requires pretreatment to remove nitrite. Sulfamic acid addition, used previously for this purpose, is shown here to be compatible with the denitrifier method for both N and O isotope analysis of nitrate. Sulfamic acid at a pH of ∼1.7 reduces nitrite to N2.

Huh?

 

[EnterName]

Here's one study cited as evidence that Prime detoxifies nitrite:

https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/rcm.4307

In environmental water samples that contain both nitrate and nitrite, isotopic analysis of nitrate alone by all currently available methods requires pretreatment to remove nitrite. Sulfamic acid addition, used previously for this purpose, is shown here to be compatible with the denitrifier method for both N and O isotope analysis of nitrate. Sulfamic acid at a pH of ∼1.7 reduces nitrite to N2.

Huh?

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to say anything about ammonia. Nitrite isn't really an issue for reef tanks as you may know. I doubt we can just assume it does the same for ammonia.

 

[Lasse]

Here's one study cited as evidence that Prime detoxifies nitrite:

https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/rcm.4307

Huh?

In environmental water samples that contain both nitrate and nitrite, isotopic analysis of nitrate alone by all currently available methods requires pretreatment to remove nitrite. Sulfamic acid addition, used previously for this purpose, is shown here to be compatible with the denitrifier method for both N and O isotope analysis of nitrate. Sulfamic acid at a pH of ∼1.7 reduces nitrite to N2.

My bold
As I always say - read everything before conclusions are drawn. Is often you have pH around 1.7 in reeftanks

I have read the article and let us say - its full of experiment that makes you raise your eyebrows. Read this part that seems to be very well thought when yo first read it

Three solutions were prepared, one at a pH of 6, another at the default pH of 8 (the natural pH of the water at this facility, used as a Control) and a third at a pH of 11.

Prime was administered to two of the three vials below. The vial at a pH of 8 (center) had none, the vials at a pH of 6 (right) and 11 (left) were treated with Prime’s “Emergency Dose” (ED) of 5X the normal dose per 1PPM of desired reduction.

All three vials tested positive for 2PPM of ammonia. Prime 5X (ED) removed 100% of the ammonia in about 3 HOURS:

For the reason detailed below however, Prime required 7 HOURS to remove the ammonium:

The difference in reduction time is that ammonium is less chemically active than ammonia and therefore requires more energy or time to reach the same level of reduction.

For either ammonia or ammonium to be reduced, it has to be converted to a more inert compound. As Prime et al are sulfur-based reducing agents, the ammonia and ammonium compounds should create sulfates.

In this case, the created sulfates are related to the Ammonium Sulfate family.

The vials treated with Prime now test positive for SULFATES:

And after that

During the three-hour reduction, we observed gas escaping, only from the Prime treated vials:

For the sake of simplicity, I’ll take a bit more semantic license here. The reductive reaction taking place here results in the production of various gasses. Nitrogen, Oxygen, Hydrogen and Sulfur Dioxide should be liberated in this process (it can take the form of nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen compounds in gaseous forms as well but again for simplicity, I’ll be referring to these as their parent elements and compound: N, O, H and SO2).

The author say that the gas leaking out but forget to tell that at pH 11 - the ammonia is precent as a gas and his "prime reduction" of ammonia can in reality be that the tube lost ammonia in form of gas and no reduction

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

@Dan_P and @Randy Holmes-Farley

This article shows up in another forum as a prove that Prime works

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/30020-a-brief-history-of-prime/

Any comments?

Sincerely Lasse

Looks like a shill article to me.
pH, no controls, excuses about sulfate and hedging on kit accuracy and noise.

There was an article somewhere a year or so ago that debunked it by doing the same basic test (actually 3 independent tests if I remember correctly) with controls (no prime) and showed the high pH off gas showed the same result without prime. I bookmarked somewhere, but can't find it.

 

[areefer01]

I bookmarked somewhere, but can't find it.

Reminds me of my desk...

 

[BeanAnimal]

presto!

5.5.3.2.1. Prime, Safe and Ammonia - Aquarium Science

Synopsis The simple conclusion of this article is simply that no less than TEN tests done by three qualified scientists conclusively show that Seachem Prime does NO "detoxification" or "binding" of ammonia, not even on a temporary basis. Seachem has ZERO tests which prove Prime detoxifies...

aquariumscience.org

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

presto!

5.5.3.2.1. Prime, Safe and Ammonia - Aquarium Science

Synopsis The simple conclusion of this article is simply that no less than TEN tests done by three qualified scientists conclusively show that Seachem Prime does NO "detoxification" or "binding" of ammonia, not even on a temporary basis. Seachem has ZERO tests which prove Prime detoxifies...

aquariumscience.org

Ah, yeah - Taricha's work here (interesting stuff):

Just with regards to Prime - some recent work from the Chemistry Forum here very strongly suggests (honestly, seems about as close to proving it as possible without Seachem releasing their proprietary formula information for it) that it is not useful for binding meaningful quantities of ammonia.

taricha explains in depth why throughout the thread, but for the shortened version, posts 158 (my post, partially quoted below) and 165 (taricha's post adding to mine) are a good, abbreviated explanation:

to summarize it briefly:

-The binder theoretically works, but nowhere near effectively enough to be useful for ammonia removal in our tanks.

-The binder itself seems to be more toxic than the ammonia it's attempting to bind.

-Tests showing that the binder bound useful amounts of ammonia are explained by test kit interference caused by the chemicals involved in the binding process.

A Deep Dive on Ammonia Neutralizer Chemistry - Prime, ClorAm-X, Rongalite and friends.

@Dan_P I think your message got lost...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[BeanAnimal]

So somewhat circular reference here, but still valid to me as showing that Prime doesn't do what is advertised.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Dan_P and @Randy Holmes-Farley

This article shows up in another forum as a prove that Prime works

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/30020-a-brief-history-of-prime/

Any comments?

Sincerely Lasse

I stopped reading that “summary” which was claimed to be reviewed for accuracy when I got a very short way into it and they claimed:

“Contains Complexed Hydrosulfite Salts”​

On the Seachem Prime® bottle, you’ll find only the above statement and little else about what it contains.

The most likely suspect in that vague description is Sodium Dithionite, a chemical designed in 1904 by BASF. This same chemical is also known as Sodium Hydrosulfite and Sodium Bisulfite.

It is largely used as a ‘reducing agent’ which simply means it ‘reduces’ a target chemical(s) from a stable form (resisting change) to an unstable one that degrades into something that is easily dissolved, dissipated (like a gas), precipitated, or converted to something innocuous.
Checked for accuracy? Seachem literally states the product is not dithionite. They state it in the letter written to challenge the aquarium science article, which reposts it:

5.5.3.2.3. Prime, Safe and Sodium Dithionite - Aquarium Science

5.5.3.2.3. Prime, Safe and Sodium Dithionite Prime and Safe are two water conditioners made by Seachem. The Seachem marketing department makes a series of claims about these two products which simply are not true. This article examines one of those claims. Note that I admit I am decidedly biased...

aquariumscience.org

 

[Lasse]

I stopped reading that “summary” which was claimed to be reviewed for accuracy when I got a very short way into it and they claimed:

“Contains Complexed Hydrosulfite Salts”​

On the Seachem Prime® bottle, you’ll find only the above statement and little else about what it contains.

The most likely suspect in that vague description is Sodium Dithionite, a chemical designed in 1904 by BASF. This same chemical is also known as Sodium Hydrosulfite and Sodium Bisulfite.

It is largely used as a ‘reducing agent’ which simply means it ‘reduces’ a target chemical(s) from a stable form (resisting change) to an unstable one that degrades into something that is easily dissolved, dissipated (like a gas), precipitated, or converted to something innocuous.
Checked for accuracy? Seachem literally states the product is not dithionite. They state it in the letter written to challenge the aquarium science article, which reposts it:

5.5.3.2.3. Prime, Safe and Sodium Dithionite - Aquarium Science

5.5.3.2.3. Prime, Safe and Sodium Dithionite Prime and Safe are two water conditioners made by Seachem. The Seachem marketing department makes a series of claims about these two products which simply are not true. This article examines one of those claims. Note that I admit I am decidedly biased...

aquariumscience.org

Thank´s

Sincerely Lasse