Help with Phosphate levels

[aus1230]

A little about my fish tank: It's a 40-gallon long reef that's been established for about 14 months. I've always struggled with irregular phosphate levels, which I believe has contributed to some of the issues I've had with my corals.

Originally, I only used filter floss for filtration, and looking back, I don't think I was changing it as often as I should have. I'm assuming that allowed detritus to build up, which likely caused my phosphate levels to spike.

I recently installed a Nature Dimensions system, and over the past few weeks I've been tracking my phosphate levels closely. So far, it seems like the new setup has helped stabilize them, and they're currently sitting around 0.11 ppm.

My question is: should I continue with my normal weekly water changes and let the phosphate come down naturally over time, or would it be beneficial to do a couple of extra water changes over the next week to bring it down more quickly? I have also attached my most recent testing along with when I installed my nature dimensions. Along with where I believe I finally got the sensor dialed in.

0.11 7/13
.10 7/9
.10 7/8
.32 7/8 (Water change to include cleaning out the back of the tank which I believe had a lot of build up from not having a good removal system)
Before this my numbers would range)
.21 7/7
.21 6/30
.14 6/22
.07 6/14
.13 6/05

I am also looking at re doing my scape as it has a good amount of buildup behind my scape. I can also move one of my Neros to the back but I currently have them set up going against each other to create a random flow set on pulse and alternating. I have included some photos of my scape and the view from the back. Along with the current set up of my two Nero 3s.

I apologize for the word vomit but am just looking for some insight. I know I shouldn't chase low phosphate numbers but would like to create more stability in managing it in the tank.

 

[aus1230]

 

[Thumbster]

What are you using to test?
I have recently looked into lowering my PO4, and from what I remember reading on here, your PO4 levels are well within the normal range. It used to be everyone tried to get as close to 0.0 as possible, but now, anything from .05 to .3 is acceptable.

FWIW, I'm using only a Tidal 110 HOB filter for filtration on my 40 breeder and my PO4 is down to 0.38 from 0.64. (I'm using GFO in a filter sock). The tank has never looked better.
I have purple stylos, monti setosa, frogspawn, a hammer and some palys that are doing well.

Also, if I'm understanding this right, water changes can be used to control nitrates but PO4 is bound to the rock and sand so other methods are preferred to reduce it. GFO, Lanthanum, chaeto in a refugium etc.

Edit: found Randys thoughts on this

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want high targets, some want a particular ratio, and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[aus1230]

What are you using to test?
I have recently looked into lowering my PO4, and from what I remember reading on here, your PO4 levels are well within the normal range. It used to be everyone tried to get as close to 0.0 as possible, but now, anything from .05 to .3 is acceptable.

FWIW, I'm using only a Tidal 110 HOB filter for filtration on my 40 breeder and my PO4 is down to 0.38 from 0.64. (I'm using GFO in a filter sock). The tank has never looked better.
I have purple stylos, monti setosa, frogspawn, a hammer and some palys that are doing well.

Also, if I'm understanding this right, water changes can be used to control nitrates but PO4 is bound to the rock and sand so other methods are preferred to reduce it. GFO, Lanthanum, chaeto in a refugium etc.

Edit: found Randys thoughts on this

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want high targets, some want a particular ratio, and...

www.reef2reef.com

Great points! Which also makes me think that I am also having a build up of detritus and food in the back of the tank. Might need to add a power head back there or redo the rock work.

 

[MonsoonMan&RainChild]

Does your tank have a sump? Either way, you could likely hide the inlet and outlet of a reactor. I use the BRS Mini Reactor with High Capacity GFO in it and its amazing. For my 85 gal system, I mix 4 tablesppons of the BRS High Capacity GFO with enough ROX carbon to fill the balance of the reactor chamber. I blend the two together and load the reactor. this prevents the GFO from needing to be tumbled and gets me a little water clarity boost from the carbon.

Anyway, I run the reactor with the valve about half closed and it holds my phosphates really dead steady between 0.04 and 0.07 for about 6-7 weeks. Its incredibly effective and at such a low amount needed per change, I couldnt be happier.

When I test and I notice my phosphates rise about 0.1, I open the valve on the reactor all the way open and that gets me a few more days of readings below 0.1 and then I change it and we go again.

 

[exnisstech]

I don't know that I would do anything with PO4 at 0.1 unless there a reason you feel it's a problem. The tank below runs PO4 0.4-0.9 + . I'll run a little GFO when I see a flashing 0.9 which is as high as my Hanna can test. Its been running for over 2 years and PO4 has never been below 0.4. Last Sunday I tested PO4 0.73 and NO3 was 54.3.

That tank was a transfer from the tank below that never had phosphate below 0.4 in 6 years running.

PS Not a recommendation but I very rarely vacuum detritus from the display and I never clean my sumps which may help explain my high levels. I have a lot of critters that live in the the filth so leave it for them.

 

[aus1230]

I don't know that I would do anything with PO4 at 0.1 unless there a reason you feel it's a problem. The tank below runs PO4 0.4-0.9 + . I'll run a little GFO when I see a flashing 0.9 which is as high as my Hanna can test. Its been running for over 2 years and PO4 has never been below 0.4. Last Sunday I tested PO4 0.73 and NO3 was 54.3.

That tank was a transfer from the tank below that never had phosphate below 0.4 in 6 years running.

That tank was a transfer from the tank below that never had phosphate below 0.4 in 6 years running.

PS Not a recommendation but I very rarely vacuum detritus from the display and I never clean my sumps which may help explain my high levels. I have a lot of critters that live in the the filth so leave it for them.

How big are these tanks? My current set up is 40 gallons. Can’t a bigger tank take those bigger swings in numbers vs a smaller tank?

I was kind of leaning towards just maintaining around that .10 phosphate number.

 

[winxp_man]

I will leave my sorry as of recent here incase it helps someone. So after setting up my new tank, and getting my big number of fish in the tank. I, of course, had to feed. But my fish love food and veg like some little punks! So over all my Po4 without algae in a refugium, or cuc just fish, rocks, and sand, started getting increase in Po4. Little by little it increased up to .26, and the trend only seemed to be upward. So I dosed phosphate-e by proper ml for my tank. Not long after my yellow tangs started showing issues. My last does increased even more. Can’t explains why it did not do much at all for the system.

The last two weeks, before running what I will added below, I stopped because of my yellows. And Po4 was on the rise. So over to, one of the LFS’s near me, I went. Grabbed some Rowa Phos. The first 24 hours, after having a field day with my broken BRS reactor (the top end was a bad one, luckily I have a few form older ones that worked) I finally got it to work not before dumping a bit of Rowa from the reactor into my sump. Nothing crazy but enough to make a mess and tick me off during the evening. Either way got it working. In the first 24 hours my Po4 went from .26 to .16… mind you I over rinsed the darn Gfo because of the reactor issues.

So tracking it day to day within three days it was at .08. It’s now bouncing between .08 and as low as .05 on super rinsed rowa Gfo, and it’s now been 2 weeks. And still feeding pretty heavy, selcone, and vitachem in foods, frozen every other day. My lot of fish are just fat pigs! What can I say!!

In final, Rowa Phos worked and is working great for me. For my Fowler tank for just a bit longer.


Specs
Tank 290 gallons of water with sand and rocks. Without it’s a 340 system.

Rowa 250ml that I initially started with, after the hiccup I’m a little less than that. But it’s still working. I know because I turned it off for a day or two and saw increased in Po4.

 

[backbayreef]

Counter above — I’ve been dosing PhosphatE for years without issues. My PO4 is pegged under 0.1ppm while dosing 8mL/day. I have 3 yellow tangs and 25+ other tangs & angels. YMMV

For the OP: I wouldn’t worry about your current PO4 levels. If you’re lazy like me, you can do a few drops of PhosphateRx (also LC-based) every few months to keep things under control. Some people reported issues with tangs while dosing Lanthanum Chloride. As for me, I’ve been dosing across 4 tanks for almost a decade without any issues. Good luck!

 

[winxp_man]

Counter above — I’ve been dosing PhosphatE for years without issues. My PO4 is pegged under 0.1ppm while dosing 8mL/day. I have 3 yellow tangs and 25+ other tangs & angels. YMMV

For the OP: I wouldn’t worry about your current PO4 levels. If you’re lazy like me, you can do a few drops of PhosphateRx (also LC-based) every few months to keep things under control. Some people reported issues with tangs while dosing Lanthanum Chloride. As for me, I’ve been dosing across 4 tanks for almost a decade without any issues. Good luck!

Have plenty of other tangs myself. And it is a known fact that lanthanum can cause issues in yellows. I would agree that you don’t have issues in your yellows, but not all fish I would say are the same in regard to lanthanum. I stopped and fish are doing better.

I would say try it, and if you see issues stop. It’s been easier to run Rowa for me. I hate the idea of handing to remember to dose Po4-e on a regular.

On another note is your NP unit holding decently accurate readings? Mine did at first. Then went on some trips and after a high RODI dump because of temp rise issue, it started reason not far food from Hanna. Seems many don’t like the Trident NP units.

 

[exnisstech]

How big are these tanks? My current set up is 40 gallons. Can’t a bigger tank take those bigger swings in numbers vs a smaller tank?

I was kind of leaning towards just maintaining around that .10 phosphate number.

If you have a target number for what ever reason then I would probably use GFO or other chemical method. Personally I've never found high phosphate to be an issue but there's nothing wrong with trying to maintain a certain level I just don't bother. I don't think tank size really matters. I do worry about low PO4 because any tank I've ever had nuisance algae problems in have been tanks with very low PO4 and those have been smaller tanks. Usually people seem to be concerned that high levels can lead to nuisance algae but I've not found that to be true for me and my tanks.

 

[backbayreef]

Have plenty of other tangs myself. And it is a known fact that lanthanum can cause issues in yellows. I would agree that you don’t have issues in your yellows, but not all fish I would say are the same in regard to lanthanum. I stopped and fish are doing better.

I would say try it, and if you see issues stop. It’s been easier to run Rowa for me. I hate the idea of handing to remember to dose Po4-e on a regular.

On another note is your NP unit holding decently accurate readings? Mine did at first. Then went on some trips and after a high RODI dump because of temp rise issue, it started reason not far food from Hanna. Seems many don’t like the Trident NP units.

I don’t think we can call it a fact though - definitely an indicator that some people had issues and others don’t. I dose LC into a 50micron fleece roller, before the skimmer chamber. It’s super easy to dose — mine is on a DOS and 8mL is spread across 6hrs during photo period. It’s pretty much set it & forget it for me.

NP is still pretty darn close to Hanna, within tolerances of our hobby-grade test kits. I spot check them last week.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A little about my fish tank: It's a 40-gallon long reef that's been established for about 14 months. I've always struggled with irregular phosphate levels, which I believe has contributed to some of the issues I've had with my corals.

Originally, I only used filter floss for filtration, and looking back, I don't think I was changing it as often as I should have. I'm assuming that allowed detritus to build up, which likely caused my phosphate levels to spike.

I recently installed a Nature Dimensions system, and over the past few weeks I've been tracking my phosphate levels closely. So far, it seems like the new setup has helped stabilize them, and they're currently sitting around 0.11 ppm.

My question is: should I continue with my normal weekly water changes and let the phosphate come down naturally over time, or would it be beneficial to do a couple of extra water changes over the next week to bring it down more quickly? I have also attached my most recent testing along with when I installed my nature dimensions. Along with where I believe I finally got the sensor dialed in.

0.11 7/13
.10 7/9
.10 7/8
.32 7/8 (Water change to include cleaning out the back of the tank which I believe had a lot of build up from not having a good removal system)
Before this my numbers would range)
.21 7/7
.21 6/30
.14 6/22
.07 6/14
.13 6/05

I am also looking at re doing my scape as it has a good amount of buildup behind my scape. I can also move one of my Neros to the back but I currently have them set up going against each other to create a random flow set on pulse and alternating. I have included some photos of my scape and the view from the back. Along with the current set up of my two Nero 3s.

I apologize for the word vomit but am just looking for some insight. I know I shouldn't chase low phosphate numbers but would like to create more stability in managing it in the tank.

I definitely would not be trying to lower phosphate that was currently at 0.11 ppm.

My recommended target range is 0.05 to 0.3 ppm

There's really no evidence that corals have an issue with phosphate in that range, and some great tanks have ten times as much as yours.

FWIW, water changes are not generally an effective way to reduce phosphate noticeably due to rock and sand binding. Release from those settings raises it back after the change.

See this article for a fabulous tank with 1 ppm phosphate:

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[aus1230]

I definitely would not be trying to lower phosphate that was currently at 0.11 ppm.

My recommended target range is 0.05 to 0.3 ppm

There's really no evidence that corals have an issue with phosphate in that range, and some great tanks have ten times as much as yours.

FWIW, water changes are not generally an effective way to reduce phosphate noticeably due to rock and sand binding. Release from those settings raises it back after the change.

See this article for a fabulous tank with 1 ppm phosphate:

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

I appreciate your advice. Any chance you could go over to my other post and check out my question about my aquascape I believe some of my issues are due to lack of overall good flow in the tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, although I do not claim to have great insight into flow impacts.