QT tank, dose or observe only?

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

the article is based on using ionic copper. Thus it wouldn't mention chelated copper. I believe I said (when I posted the article) that there was very little in it concerning non-ionic copper. Both types of copper if overdosed are toxic.

Just to clarify a point - when reading fisheries papers, and some older public aquarium papers, their use of "chelated copper" doesn't align with current usage. The standard copper medication is made by mixing copper sulfate with citric acid. This "chelates" the copper for storage. Once added to an aquarium, that "chelated" material disassociates and acts as ionic copper. Some still call this "chelated copper" though. The amine-chelation bond is much stronger and persists after the solution is added to seawater.

 

[winxp_man]

Just to clarify a point - when reading fisheries papers, and some older public aquarium papers, their use of "chelated copper" doesn't align with current usage. The standard copper medication is made by mixing copper sulfate with citric acid. This "chelates" the copper for storage. Once added to an aquarium, that "chelated" material disassociates and acts as ionic copper. Some still call this "chelated copper" though. The amine-chelation bond is much stronger and persists after the solution is added to seawater.

You’re correct Jay. What I have not searched in this regard is which amino acids are used in the chelated copper we use for QT copper power or copper safe. I know there are several groups used based upon what the medication is needed for.

 

[13rodo]

Just to clarify a point - when reading fisheries papers, and some older public aquarium papers, their use of "chelated copper" doesn't align with current usage. The standard copper medication is made by mixing copper sulfate with citric acid. This "chelates" the copper for storage. Once added to an aquarium, that "chelated" material disassociates and acts as ionic copper. Some still call this "chelated copper" though. The amine-chelation bond is much stronger and persists after the solution is added to seawater.

What might make this whole discussion easier is if someone did a study using modern amine-chelated copper. Maybe that is only a topic of interest in hobby-land though.

 

[Jasonak]

@dirtyd61 Not sure if this was mentioned yet. I didnt want to read 9 pages :P Fish Hotel has a awesome QT scheduler as well as Med calculator, he is also just a all around good dude to get fish from.

https://fishotel.com/qt-scheduler/

 

[Marc G-L]

I'm in the providing the best biome ( including bacteria, macroalgae, copepods, amphipods, two home grown filter feeding oysters, and many hiding spots as possible). Next, I ensure appropriate species feeding but, no QT.
Fish have great immune systems, nature also has an abundance of things that fed on the culprits. I too often have read about lengthy QTs, including a variety of dips, copper soln's etc , only to find out a disease sprung up on that critter once it was introduced into the DT.
Add to that the poor fish that die, refuse to eat and starve, or are stressed to the max in tiny, mostly bare QT'S.

A recent addition to my reef tank was a gorgeous electric blue coral beauty angel. She didn't eat for 5 days. Developed a bacterial infection on one pectoral fin, then it progressed, spreading to the opposite side and then the dorsal fin. Got her some mysis shrimp mixed w/ spirulina algae. 5 days later all sign of fuzzy bacteria gone. None of the other tank inhabitants demonstrated infection.

Is this approach for everyone? Obviously not. But, the biological approach has its merits and a decent sized UV lamp can back up your plan if things start going south.

 

[winxp_man]

I'm in the providing the best biome ( including bacteria, macroalgae, copepods, amphipods, two home grown filter feeding oysters, and many hiding spots as possible). Next, I ensure appropriate species feeding but, no QT.
Fish have great immune systems, nature also has an abundance of things that fed on the culprits. I too often have read about lengthy QTs, including a variety of dips, copper soln's etc , only to find out a disease sprung up on that critter once it was introduced into the DT.
Add to that the poor fish that die, refuse to eat and starve, or are stressed to the max in tiny, mostly bare QT'S.

A recent addition to my reef tank was a gorgeous electric blue coral beauty angel. She didn't eat for 5 days. Developed a bacterial infection on one pectoral fin, then it progressed, spreading to the opposite side and then the dorsal fin. Got her some mysis shrimp mixed w/ spirulina algae. 5 days later all sign of fuzzy bacteria gone. None of the other tank inhabitants demonstrated infection.

Is this approach for everyone? Obviously not. But, the biological approach has its merits and a decent sized UV lamp can back up your plan if things start going south.

Question to part one of your post. Define stress? I feel this word is used pretty loose this day and age. Because if we are to ask the question about stress, being in a tank vs ocean can be stated as stressed. Too many fish in a tank? Stress, fighting? Stress, not the right food, stress or weak immune system. By this logic, we all need a 1000 gal system. At the end of the day not even that is good enough for fish that are made for the ocean. Clowns or fish that perch would be the least stressed if we are real because they don’t go traveling much. I’m not trying to bash you. Asking a honest question about what is stress considered. Would say this, if there is physical sings on the body, if the fish was eating prior to being placed in the QT tanks for medical attention, and stops eating I would say these are stress factors for sure.

But I have had the opposite take place. A sick fish that was not eating and was about to give up on life because of ich and flukes, ended up eating while in full copper and dosed with prazi for flukes. Time was of the essence, so took drastic measures. But it worked now she’s swimming around a lot, and eating again. After two week of no food from where I got her from. So wouldn’t the logic, if copper is just that toxic, make this story the opposite? For a fish on the verge of death?

Bacterial infections are not as contagious as one would think.

And yes the approach of no medication or QT can work for people that are pros about it. Why is copper still being used by big shot reefers today as we speak and QT systems?


One of my QT tanks that’s been running about a year with copper even has pods in it. Thriving as a matter of fact.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

What might make this whole discussion easier is if someone did a study using modern amine-chelated copper. Maybe that is only a topic of interest in hobby-land though.

I suspect that one reason that this hasn’t been done is that the three amine-chelated copper products hide their formulas very well. Writing a peer reviewed paper using them would require more transparency. At the very least, they’d need a chemical formula.

I had tried searching how these products are made, but came up empty. I had a vague lead about some research done in England in the early 1970’s, but I couldn’t confirm anything.

 

[KrisReef]

Just to clarify a point - when reading fisheries papers, and some older public aquarium papers, their use of "chelated copper" doesn't align with current usage. The standard copper medication is made by mixing copper sulfate with citric acid. This "chelates" the copper for storage. Once added to an aquarium, that "chelated" material disassociates and acts as ionic copper. Some still call this "chelated copper" though. The amine-chelation bond is much stronger and persists after the solution is added to seawater.

I have noticed that Chloroquine medication has been available for purchase online for fish treatment lately. I think I recall that it can replace copper in QT settings, but I don’t pretend to know how or when that might be useful?

Can you discuss, if you please, & thank you.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

What might make this whole discussion easier is if someone did a study using modern amine-chelated copper. Maybe that is only a topic of interest in hobby-land though.

Ha! I just asked AI (last time I looked into this, AI wasn’t a thing). It gave me this:

made?

Amine-chelated copper medications (like Seachem Cupramine or Mardel Coppersafe) are manufactured by binding free copper ions (typically from copper sulfate) with nitrogen-based chelating agents. This process keeps the copper in solution without it precipitating into a toxic state or binding to tank gravel and decorations.

The Manufacturing Process
Manufacturers formulate these medications through a specific, controlled chemical synthesis:

1. Base Solution: Copper sulfate or copper chloride is dissolved in distilled water to create a high-concentration ionic copper solution.
2. Adding the Amine: A nitrogen-rich amine compound (such as ammonia, ethylenediamine, or an amino acid) is slowly added to the copper solution while continuously stirring.
3. The Chelating Reaction: Initially, this causes a cloudy blue precipitate of copper hydroxide. As excess amine is introduced, the solution clears and transforms into a deep-blue complex (e.g., tetraamminecopper(II) sulfate).
4. Stabilization: The amine molecules form a tight, cage-like "chelate ring" around the copper ion (Cu²⁺). This renders the copper less reactive and "bound," lowering its toxicity to fish while remaining lethal to parasites.
5. Precipitation & Drying: Alcohol or specific salt solutions are frequently added to lower the polarity of the liquid, forcing the chelated copper to crystallize into a microcrystalline powder. This powder is then filtered, dried, and packaged for commercial use. [1, 2]

Why This Matters in the Aquarium

• Safety Buffer: Pure ionic copper (unchelated copper sulfate) drops out of solution rapidly, which can cause erratic, unsafe spikes in copper levels. Amine chelation slows this breakdown, keeping the copper level stable and giving a wider margin for error when dosing.
• Reef & Substrate Safety: While chelating prevents the copper from reacting with the carbonate in reef rocks and sand, it does make the medication much more difficult to fully remove from the tank following treatment.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I have noticed that Chloroquine medication has been available for purchase online for fish treatment lately. I think I recall that it can replace copper in QT settings, but I don’t pretend to know how or when that might be useful?

Can you discuss, if you please, & thank you.

That’s a complicated topic. I wrote an article about its use back in 2010, maybe this would be a good starting point for you?

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/

 

[Arose231]

In my opinion the biggest issue with QT is that we are still heavily relying on two outdated studies on ich that were done in a laboratory setting from 30 plus years ago this is a major flaw. To still say and completey rely on that you have that specific strain of ich is completely flawed. This is why the 76 day fallow periods fail even 30 days copper. As well LFS are to blame for the rise of copper resistant ich and velvet strains because they keeping putting fish in sub therapeutic copper levels. I still QT for velvet and Flukes because from my experience those are the most dangerous parasites that can be brought into your tank I have seen it first hand. I have puffers and tangs in my tank that have lived with ich for years now specifically my porcupine even my hippo which sadly passed away from velvet and flukes a while back. I am now running a Aqua UV 25 watt on my 125 gallon and a 15 watt on my 30 gallon to manage ich.

 

[Arose231]

Anyways the original question was opinions on preemptive medication. You and vette decided to bulldoze anyone with a differing opinion. You made up stats on the spot and implied anything other than your way was wrong. That’s not science, it’s ego.

Yea I don’t like how vette always copy’s and paste his answers with qt for copper and flukes they are not always right. He litteraly says prazi stays active for 8 days this is completely false the prazi only last for 24-48 hours at most. @Jay Hemdal

 

[13rodo]

I suspect that one reason that this hasn’t been done is that the three amine-chelated copper products hide their formulas very well. Writing a peer reviewed paper using them would require more transparency. At the very least, they’d need a chemical formula.

I had tried searching how these products are made, but came up empty. I had a vague lead about some research done in England in the early 1970’s, but I couldn’t confirm anything.

Gotcha. My thought was a comprehensive survey across species at different ages of said species. The dataset required would obviously be massive, I doubt such a thing exists, and I doubt anyone who isn’t a hobbyist really cares (maybe wrong). Basically a literature refresher using amine-chelated instead of ionic.

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal do you agree that the rise in copper resistant ich strains is because of LFS and them constantly putting fish in sub therapeutic levels of copper. Before we could get away with 1.5 to 2ppm copper now we have to go all the way up to the max of 2.5ppm which is very harsh on some fish

 

[Arose231]

In my opinion the biggest issue with QT is that we are still heavily relying on two outdated studies on ich that were done in a laboratory setting from 30 plus years ago this is a major flaw. To still say and completey rely on that you have that specific strain of ich is completely flawed. This is why the 76 day fallow periods fail even 30 days copper. As well LFS are to blame for the rise of copper resistant ich and velvet strains because they keeping putting fish in sub therapeutic copper levels. I still QT for velvet and Flukes because from my experience those are the most dangerous parasites that can be brought into your tank I have seen it first hand. I have puffers and tangs in my tank that have lived with ich for years now specifically my porcupine even my hippo which sadly passed away from velvet and flukes a while back. I am now running a Aqua UV 25 watt on my 125 gallon and a 15 watt on my 30 gallon to manage ich.

@13rodo do you agree with this?

 

[13rodo]

@13rodo do you agree with this?

Honestly man I’m not an expert. I’m a hobbyist with an opinion. I got too heated defending that opinion and said some things I can’t take back. I apologized and am moving on.

 

[exnisstech]

Honestly man I’m not an expert. I’m a hobbyist with an opinion. I got too heated defending that opinion and said some things I can’t take back. I apologized and am moving on.

No one can ask for more than that.

 

[christinna77]

Yea I don’t like how vette always copy’s and paste his answers with qt for copper and flukes they are not always right. He litteraly says prazi stays active for 8 days this is completely false the prazi only last for 24-48 hours at most. @Jay Hemdal

It's probably just confusing wording. I'm pretty sure he meant dosing prazi every 8 days to break the flukes life cycle, not that prazi stays active for 8 days. I usually do a WC after 48 to 72 hours.

 

[keithw283]

Anyways the original question was opinions on preemptive medication. You and vette decided to bulldoze anyone with a differing opinion. You made up stats on the spot and implied anything other than your way was wrong. That’s not science, it’s ego.

The only one bulldozing anybody is you man. You need to chill out. You literally started personally attacking Jay just because he does things differently than you and that is exactly what you are claiming he did.

 

[Arose231]

The only one bulldozing anybody is you man. You need to chill out. You literally started personally attacking Jay just because he does things differently than you and that is exactly what you are claiming he did.

Yea jay has helped so many people and hobbyists and save so many fishes lives it’s just wrong