OP
OP
My experience with SPS in this tank has been losing color is a prelude to something bad happening.
Help with SPS in my tank
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My experience with SPS in this tank has been losing color is a prelude to something bad happening.
Have you looked for PE during lights-out? This is my 2 year old Walt Disney at it most extended under early morning blue. Once the lights hit daylight there is virtually no visible PE. Yet it grows like mad.
OP
OP
Have you looked for PE during lights-out? This is my 2 year old Walt Disney at it most extended under early morning blue. Once the lights hit daylight there is virtually no visible PE. Yet it grows like mad.
I've not really noticed any difference during mornings/evenings when light is low.
I'll really look to see if there is a difference now and this evening.
OP
OP
Some of my local reefers suggested that the tank is too young and one just needs to wait... I'm not sure I believe that.
Corals must be missing something or not liking something to react this way. My last batch lost flesh in 24hrs from arrival.
Corals need stable parameters, light, flow, major/minor elements/ions, and nutrients.
My parameters are stable and maintained through automated dosing and tank maintenance (roller mat, AWC, and ATO).
Light may be an issue due to my intensity and schedule.
Flow may be an issue due to powerheads, placement, intensity, and flow patterns.
My major/minor elements/ions should be good as I have an incremental 1% daily AWC, Kalkwasser dosing, and AFR dosing. ICP tests have been clean. I just sent another out.
Nutrients may be the biggest difference between a newish tank and a mature tank as biodiversity and competition for resources is very different. Now, my tank is running ULN despite heavier feedings and only intermittent skimming.
Given these, what would cause the latest batch to react the way it did and my lack of PE?
If it's lack of biodiversity and nutrients, I can try to get some to supplement the tank. Maybe it's borrowing or buying some well established rock to add to my tank. Maybe getting additional strains of bacteria. Maybe spot feeding.
Any thoughts on which of these might be good to target?
Corals must be missing something or not liking something to react this way. My last batch lost flesh in 24hrs from arrival.
Corals need stable parameters, light, flow, major/minor elements/ions, and nutrients.
My parameters are stable and maintained through automated dosing and tank maintenance (roller mat, AWC, and ATO).
Light may be an issue due to my intensity and schedule.
Flow may be an issue due to powerheads, placement, intensity, and flow patterns.
My major/minor elements/ions should be good as I have an incremental 1% daily AWC, Kalkwasser dosing, and AFR dosing. ICP tests have been clean. I just sent another out.
Nutrients may be the biggest difference between a newish tank and a mature tank as biodiversity and competition for resources is very different. Now, my tank is running ULN despite heavier feedings and only intermittent skimming.
Given these, what would cause the latest batch to react the way it did and my lack of PE?
If it's lack of biodiversity and nutrients, I can try to get some to supplement the tank. Maybe it's borrowing or buying some well established rock to add to my tank. Maybe getting additional strains of bacteria. Maybe spot feeding.
Any thoughts on which of these might be good to target?
Now that I look back at the pictures of your rock under daylight, my opinion is you are still a tad early for a completely hospitable SPS biome. The rocks are too clean still. Add to that a dead rock start, a ULN approach (or at least ULN outcome) and the environment is not yet optimal.
Yes, we've all read a story or two about someone booting up a new tank with lovely acro colonies (Roberto Denadai) but it is pretty darn rare. In my build thread is another month old tank with healthy SPS but that tank started with 250lbs of all live rock from 3 different (old) water systems.
I would suggest dropping in some established rock from another system (or two) and feeding the fish one more meal a day. BTW, I like your varied fish diet a lot. I bet they do too.
Here is my favorite pic from my RSR525:
Yes, we've all read a story or two about someone booting up a new tank with lovely acro colonies (Roberto Denadai) but it is pretty darn rare. In my build thread is another month old tank with healthy SPS but that tank started with 250lbs of all live rock from 3 different (old) water systems.
I would suggest dropping in some established rock from another system (or two) and feeding the fish one more meal a day. BTW, I like your varied fish diet a lot. I bet they do too.
Here is my favorite pic from my RSR525:
The Apogee 510 is the better one at LED
SPS2020
Valuable Member
What the others have said...stability and PATIENCE. I'm in the same boat as you...wanting those colors to POP...but they aren't yet. I'm basically a ULN system; not that I want it to be, but it is a bare bottom started from dry rock and the system is about to turn one year old. Still new and not really established for Acropora domination just yet.
Regarding the coloration of your coral, the right hand side looks better than the left IMO. You are getting some pinks in there which I feel is very desirable.
One thing to add is that I do own an Apogee 510 and use it to determine if an area is too "hot" or "cold" for a particular Acro.
Happy Reefing and enjoy the ride!
Regarding the coloration of your coral, the right hand side looks better than the left IMO. You are getting some pinks in there which I feel is very desirable.
One thing to add is that I do own an Apogee 510 and use it to determine if an area is too "hot" or "cold" for a particular Acro.
Happy Reefing and enjoy the ride!
OP
OP
Now that I look back at the pictures of your rock under daylight, my opinion is you are still a tad early for a completely hospitable SPS biome. The rocks are too clean still. Add to that a dead rock start, a ULN approach (or at least ULN outcome) and the environment is not yet optimal.
Yes, we've all read a story or two about someone booting up a new tank with lovely acro colonies (Roberto Denadai) but it is pretty darn rare. In my build thread is another month old tank with healthy SPS but that tank started with 250lbs of all live rock from 3 different (old) water systems.
I would suggest dropping in some established rock from another system (or two) and feeding the fish one more meal a day. BTW, I like your varied fish diet a lot. I bet they do too.
Here is my favorite pic from my RSR525:
Great feedback. Would addional bacteria strains or coral food help?
SPS2020
Valuable Member
Would addional bacteria strains or coral food help?
In my opinion, you have all the bacteria you need; your levels are fine. @Scott B. can chime in with their thoughts.
Coral food is like asking someone about what oil they prefer, you'll get a ton of opinions. I was using ReefRoids initially, but stopped after reading fish poop was the ideal coral food. I do use phyto...not that I have seen any difference, but hope to keep turf algae away.
Edit: If you aren't following the following thread, it could be helpful:
www.reef2reef.com
In my opinion, you have all the bacteria you need; your levels are fine. @Scott B. can chime in with their thoughts.
Coral food is like asking someone about what oil they prefer, you'll get a ton of opinions. I was using ReefRoids initially, but stopped after reading fish poop was the ideal coral food. I do use phyto...not that I have seen any difference, but hope to keep turf algae away.
Edit: If you aren't following the following thread, it could be helpful:
QUESTION OF THE DAY - So you want to grow beautiful acropora huh? Take a tip, leave a tip.
I believe this is why we shouldnt chase a specific number, more of a ball park that works for your tank. Alk kept within a certain range rather than a specific number has always been what ive found to work best. You end up chasing numbers that someone else has but, no two tanks are the same so...
www.reef2reef.com
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I dose some MB7 to my sump rock when my nitrates get beyond 20 or when I think about it. When my phosphate gets a little low I will throw in some ReefRoids for a few days.
I followed this thread for quite a while. There is some noise of course, but there is also some very insightful discussion about what words buzzwords like "biodiversity", "stability" and "maturity" really mean when it comes to a healthy SPS biome.
Why cant u keep sps?
Well first and for most im not a scientist or marine biologist my theory base only on my experience and observation on my reef tank. I just want to help those that have problems keeping sps. In this discussion please keep it positive and dont make it to “i know better than u or led is better...
www.reef2reef.com
Unpopulated surface area in a tank is essentially an active battlefield of multiple tribes. Once it gets down to coral, coralline, bacteria film and film algae the biome has enough civility to keep the peace. At least until nutrient resources get thin. Gee. Maybe I am just anthromorphizing.
OP
OP
I dose some MB7 to my sump rock when my nitrates get beyond 20 or when I think about it. When my phosphate gets a little low I will throw in some ReefRoids for a few days.
I followed this thread for quite a while. There is some noise of course, but there is also some very insightful discussion about what words buzzwords like "biodiversity", "stability" and "maturity" really mean when it comes to a healthy SPS biome.
Why cant u keep sps?
Well first and for most im not a scientist or marine biologist my theory base only on my experience and observation on my reef tank. I just want to help those that have problems keeping sps. In this discussion please keep it positive and dont make it to “i know better than u or led is better...
Unpopulated surface area in a tank is essentially an active battlefield of multiple tribes. Once it gets down to coral, coralline, bacteria film and film algae the biome has enough civility to keep the peace. At least until nutrient resources get thin. Gee. Maybe I am just anthromorphizing.
Some interesting reading. It appears a diverse but stable biom of "microorganisms" is the prevailing thought.
I'm still thinking it really coral "nutrients" which these microorganism help provide.
Younger tanks like mine may just need more nutrients in the form of amino acids, bacteria, and coral specific food.
I'm already dosing Reef Energy AB+ and will up my feedings.
Is there a particular bacteria that help SPS thrive? MIicrobacter7? Zeobak? Eco Balance?
Any advice?
It is pretty much my school of thought for the last few years. Bottled additives have a place perhaps but later. They are not ocean sourced. The common advice around here is to start with softies. Then some LPS. Then FINALLY some SPS.
Each time you add these corals they carry along with them bacteria and microfauna that are/were ocean based -- that kept them alive through some uneasy transitions. With enough seedings and time for the seedings to multiply and balance out the system will be ready for SPS.
Established live rock is good. Starter packs from IPSF.COM are popular.
OP
OP
So I have tons of softies, a couple LPS, and a couple SPS mini-colonies, and 1 SPS colony.
Some of these SPS have been in the tank for awhile. They are just not thriving or showing PE. They are however growing.
I bought a frag pack and 24hrs after getting them, they lost a lot of flesh and aren't looking good.
I'm trying to figure out what's "missing".
Based on feedback, I'm hearing that my tank is still too young and needs more established biodiversity.
I'm thinking that since my tank is running ULN, I need to bump up feeding and maybe dose some bacteria and/or some carbon to increase bacteria and microfauna.
While this may help the existing coral thrive, I don't think that answers why the frag pack did so poorly.
I know they came from a higher nutrients tank with lower pH buy similar Alk.
East1
Community Member
I found colour loss, if it's not related to low phosphate (which will show as a reduction in colour then the 'thickness' of the coenosarc (skin) and also polyp extension) it'll likely be related to bromine/boron or strontium, I use All for Reef on my pico Acro reef and despite that, the heavy coral load means I need to dose all of the above (at frankly, absurd amounts, like 2ml of seachem strontium, and 0.5ml of Brightwell neophos 2x a day into 5 gallon total volume)
You're right that this lkind of coral colour loss is a precursor to coral death, the reason I believe is that precipitates of phosphate and iron for example form within the coral tissue that gives rise to colouration, when PO4 is low the corals can consume these to keep going but eventually will starve out and start to go 'dry' looking or STN from the base.
I'd definitely look at phosphate first, especially as you mentioned ULN. it's not uncommon ULN tanks will end up phosphate limited.
You're right that this lkind of coral colour loss is a precursor to coral death, the reason I believe is that precipitates of phosphate and iron for example form within the coral tissue that gives rise to colouration, when PO4 is low the corals can consume these to keep going but eventually will starve out and start to go 'dry' looking or STN from the base.
I'd definitely look at phosphate first, especially as you mentioned ULN. it's not uncommon ULN tanks will end up phosphate limited.
OP
OP
Phosphate has been bouncing off zero. I'm usually between 0.01 and 0.02. I've increased fish feedings and have upped coral specific broadcast feeding which I believe ups the phosphates.
I also started reef actif today.
So far:
- Adjusted position of powerhead
- Upped feedings
- Started reef actif
- Will add a WaveBox (today)
Results (too early to tell):
- PO4 has increased from 0.01 to 0.02
- Frag pack continues to loose flesh
- Existing SPS no change
East1
Community Member
I had the same effects when I used reef actif, in fact, that I noticed my main drop in phosphates. I'd advise you read this thread about reef actif by Hans Werner (creator of the stuff, you'll know him from his surname, Balling after the method, https://www.meerwasserforum.info/index.php/Thread/37498-reef-actif/?pageNo=8)
it dictates a lot of what happens when po4 values are suddenly reduced in coral
When the corals were already showing signs of phosphate starvation, I mixed up a few drops of phosphate solution into Zeovit Flatworm Stop and Coral Booster, let that sit for 15 minutes then turned off the pump and dosed a 50/50mix of that with tank water over the coarl like a little bath, I'd leave the pumps off for about 5 minutes and usually, after this treatment once ortwice you can see noticable polyp extension return, and thckening of the coenosarc
it dictates a lot of what happens when po4 values are suddenly reduced in coral
When the corals were already showing signs of phosphate starvation, I mixed up a few drops of phosphate solution into Zeovit Flatworm Stop and Coral Booster, let that sit for 15 minutes then turned off the pump and dosed a 50/50mix of that with tank water over the coarl like a little bath, I'd leave the pumps off for about 5 minutes and usually, after this treatment once ortwice you can see noticable polyp extension return, and thckening of the coenosarc
OP
OP
Thanks for the link. I didn't see anything there that I didn't already know. I do quite a bit of research before I put anything into my tank. As I understand it, Reef Actif is a biopolymer carbon source that should bind with organics in the tank and then be taken up by bacteria and other micro-organisms which should in theory better feed the coral.
I've considered phosphate dosing, but feel I can achieve the same results with increased broadcast feedings as long as NO3 doesn't creep up on me.
Your elixir of "a few drops of phosphate solution into Zeovit Flatworm Stop and Coral Booster" seems interesting. What phosphate solution did you use? Why did you mix it with Zeovit Flatworm Stop? I get why you would use Coral Booster as it adds some trace elements that are believed to be needed by corals.
As I use All-for-reef, which contains trace elements, I think I'm covered for trace elements.
East1
Community Member
Ah okay good, that is how it works but it seems to suck out phosphate and nitrate hilariously fast, I'm not sure how - I think the biopolymers stimulate anerobic bacteria already present or something? I found unless I kept an eye on nutrients that using reef actif was more detrimental at the time I was using it with low phosphate, but one can also see corals like stylophora and to a degree some of the larger polyp acropora catching it.
Yeah you likely are fine for trace, I found issues with AFR for trace elements but my coral load is very, very high given the water volume, so it's likely that
I used (at the time) easylife Fosfo, I use brightwell neophos now, it seems to be a better mix of salts and they are able to uptake easier.
The mix as a vector I got as a recommendation from Thomas Pohl directly, he advised it for dosing potassium when the corals show high potassium deficency, as the solution of FWS can be taken up through the coral skin easily, adding another element to this allows that element to also be taken up - I have tested this a lot, and with elements like bromine dosing without any water flow will cause the areas that are direct-dosed to bleach over the course of a few hours, it's very effective. Coral booster reacts with FWS and seems to be more reactive in this sense vs just using FWS, but in my experimentation mixing with FWS was the important part
Yeah you likely are fine for trace, I found issues with AFR for trace elements but my coral load is very, very high given the water volume, so it's likely that
I used (at the time) easylife Fosfo, I use brightwell neophos now, it seems to be a better mix of salts and they are able to uptake easier.
The mix as a vector I got as a recommendation from Thomas Pohl directly, he advised it for dosing potassium when the corals show high potassium deficency, as the solution of FWS can be taken up through the coral skin easily, adding another element to this allows that element to also be taken up - I have tested this a lot, and with elements like bromine dosing without any water flow will cause the areas that are direct-dosed to bleach over the course of a few hours, it's very effective. Coral booster reacts with FWS and seems to be more reactive in this sense vs just using FWS, but in my experimentation mixing with FWS was the important part
OP
OP
So if I understand correctly, FWS has a binding mechanism and is readily accepted by SPS coral. So adding trace elements or PO4 to FWS will quickly provide missing nutrients to the coral.
OP
OP
I've been reading through several more threads and found this one to be helpful:
www.reef2reef.com
Any thoughts on PE and ULN?
My current NO3 is 3ppm and PO4 0.02ppm which qualifies as ULN in my opinion.
So does little to no PE indicate coral is lacking nutrients and starving? Does the no PE allow the coral to soak up more light for energy?
Musings from an intermediate Acro junkie and what i KNOW to be true about growing acros
I have been in the hobby for a few yrs. I KNOW there are guys who know way more than me about taxonomy, have way more experience with growing sticks + all the different lighting equipment, and better at every other aspect.. In the past few years, (2015) I went from a relatively newbie, to I...
www.reef2reef.com
Any thoughts on PE and ULN?
My current NO3 is 3ppm and PO4 0.02ppm which qualifies as ULN in my opinion.
So does little to no PE indicate coral is lacking nutrients and starving? Does the no PE allow the coral to soak up more light for energy?
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