High nitrites during cycle

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That being the case, when would you expect my nitrates to come down? Over the course of many water changes? With stability of the new eco balance?

Your nitrate is likely just a false reading based on the nitrite. With some kits, 1 ppm nitrite will read as 100 ppm nitrate. That is just how they are designed.

 

[Woodchip]

Woodchip can you post a tank shot

you are cycled, to the degree of attachment point in the tank. reasoning: you added bac that's ready in 48 hours plus you've fed it, and its active, we can see in the initial conversion step.


using updated cycling rules the nitrites don't matter one iota

but they also show active working, as in you are not stuck on the ammonia phase...if you changed out your tank water for new, you'd have nice measuring water.

currently its a mix of cycling metabolites causing all kinds of cross reads.
whats your nitrate reading, can you post the actual reading
b

To be clear you want a picture of the tank and the nitrate reading? I also added one live rock but it was dry if that matters.

 

[brandon429]

agreed just curious to see your average surface area used, we already know the inoculation source and its required dates, big picture will help shore it all up

accounting for the cross read issue, it may show super high for reasons stated. the other day we had a bottle bac user posting full on ammonia, after a long wait, bone zero nitrite -and- nitrate, and we legit wondered if the bac in the bottle were dead. they were using enough sand, and had waited some time.

in your case its just to see if we happen to have some there too/if so it pretty much means if you changed out your water you can begin, you paid for bottle bac that allows such a start date. we are changing out the water to reduce algae fuel, that's the going thought...its not that Im thinking your current water has lots of ammonia in it as you didn't report any bad smells :)

it will be neat to see the final picture of the tank you're working with, to check against newer and more updated cycling rules which state you are probably ready to begin, right now. we don't factor nitrite much anymore because its been reviewed as a neutral component in reefing, taken from chemistry forum posts.

 

[Woodchip]

agreed just curious to see your average surface area used, we already know the inoculation source and its required dates, big picture will help shore it all up

accounting for the cross read issue, it may show super high for reasons stated. the other day we had a bottle bac user posting full on ammonia, after a long wait, bone zero nitrite -and- nitrate, and we legit wondered if the bac in the bottle were dead. they were using enough sand, and had waited some time.

in your case its just to see if we happen to have some there too/if so it pretty much means if you changed out your water you can begin, you paid for bottle bac that allows such a start date. we are changing out the water to reduce algae fuel, that's the going thought...its not that Im thinking your current water has lots of ammonia in it as you didn't report any bad smells :)

it will be neat to see the final picture of the tank you're working with, to check against newer and more updated cycling rules which state you are probably ready to begin, right now. we don't factor nitrite much anymore because its been reviewed as a neutral component in reefing, taken from chemistry forum posts.

 

[Woodchip]

30 gallon tank.

nitrate is in between 40-80, nitrite still is too high to read but it is an api test kit so not sure how reliable it is. I was mostly just wondering if this is normal but thank you for all the extra help. Is there anything I should or should I just let it work itself out I am in no hurry to get fish in here I just want them to be happy when they are in it.

 

[brandon429]

Based on all the tanks exactly like yours in this thread below, all shared variables, I’m confident your tank is ready. It can sit as it sits now any length of time and it’ll sit ready


if you wanted to start reefing now, you can, we‘d run the water change and you can see upon refill the active filter zones stuck to all that rock and sand are ready. A water change cannot peel a cycle off the rocks, we run it to impart a fresh clean start.

our thread below isn’t doing anything special other than changing out wastewater for new, on the dates the bottles say. Old rules said we must wait as long as it takes for the mixed wastewater to test our clean on any kit selected. Indeed that way will work as waiting longer is safe, a cycle cannot be starved back out once set and in an open-topped home reef.

but that bottle was the costliest type, certain to be ready as shown, and to make use of it on label dates is fully legit and we think right here below quite predictable. ten pages logged. post updates whenever you get started, it’ll work great.


we have burned no fish or life in that thread, yet everyone’s positive reading for ammonia and nitrite doesn’t change course. Everyone gets a predicted start date which we start.

odd thread for sure but we are using other markers solved from cycling charts vs test approximations: namely the ammonia line at ten days from any common cycle chart. We trust it.

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Updated Cycling Science in Action This is a testless reef tank cycling thread, the only one from any board. If you ever had trouble with reef tank cycling in the past, you won't any longer after working some jobs with us. chances are you are using/about to use a method of reef tank cycling...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Woodchip]

Based on all the tanks exactly like yours in this thread below, all shared variables, I’m confident your tank is ready. It can sit as it sits now any length of time and it’ll sit ready


if you wanted to start reefing now, you can, we‘d run the water change and you can see upon refill the active filter zones stuck to all that rock and sand are ready. A water change cannot peel a cycle off the rocks, we run it to impart a fresh clean start.

our thread below isn’t doing anything special other than changing out wastewater for new, on the dates the bottles say. Old rules said we must wait as long as it takes for the mixed wastewater to test our clean on any kit selected. Indeed that way will work as waiting longer is safe, a cycle cannot be starved back out once set and in an open-topped home reef.

but that bottle was the costliest type, certain to be ready as shown, and to make use of it on label dates is fully legit and we think right here below quite predictable. ten pages logged. post updates whenever you get started, it’ll work great.


we have burned no fish or life in that thread, yet everyone’s positive reading for ammonia and nitrite doesn’t change course. Everyone gets a predicted start date which we start.

odd thread for sure but we are using other markers solved from cycling charts vs test approximations: namely the ammonia line at ten days from any common cycle chart. We trust it.

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Updated Cycling Science in Action This is a testless reef tank cycling thread, the only one from any board. If you ever had trouble with reef tank cycling in the past, you won't any longer after working some jobs with us. chances are you are using/about to use a method of reef tank cycling...

www.reef2reef.com

The only thing I forgot to mention is my ammonia was reading.25

 

[brandon429]

yep that is within spec.

im assuming it used to be higher, then changed down to that, there was motion down is that right

asking because most give a hefty zip of liquid ammonia/algae fuel after conversion

and if your reading was once higher, and came to that, its the final proofing we use there for sure. we modified the rules around looking for downward motion vs hard zero.

 

[Woodchip]

yep that is within spec.

im assuming it used to be higher, then changed down to that, there was motion down is that right

asking because most give a hefty zip of liquid ammonia/algae fuel after conversion

and if your reading was once higher, and came to that, its the final proofing we use there for sure. we modified the rules around looking for downward motion vs hard zero.

Yes it came down a bit

 

[brandon429]

that really will work. we think there's no way for nitrification machinery to stop once its started, that it doesn't freeze halfway due to various insults we do, that it leaves metabolic markers most kits will overreport, and that during all that madness the bioslicks lay down anyway and we just change out the mess above it on the day we want to start.

the only way a given water arrangement by us isn't going to cycle when a chart says it will is if we dose Lysol into it, not even gross ammonia overages are stopping cycles we can see there. 8ppm gross overdose is the first thread fixed.

you can see how the method is going to work without any testing at all, no matter what brand of bac used, as long as we keep getting lucky nobody has dead bacteria from shipping which is possible.

its why we like at least a little trite or trate or some motion, even though those instances have never been seen in any of my threads ever not once. its to curb the one outlier destined to present one day... you have met all the markers from that ten pager. all chips in on your tank cycle.


that doesn't mean carrying fish as it can will help you skip fallow and QT preps, those still need to be weighed.

the key to our science is that waiting longer does not give you more bacteria on surfaces, a better filter etc.


its full, right now, that's the benefit of knowing a clean start date. start when you should, though.

 

[HD_Reefer]

that really will work. we think there's no way for nitrification machinery to stop once its started, that it doesn't freeze halfway due to various insults we do, that it leaves metabolic markers most kits will overreport, and that during all that madness the bioslicks lay down anyway and we just change out the mess above it on the day we want to start.

the only way a given water arrangement by us isn't going to cycle when a chart says it will is if we dose Lysol into it, not even gross ammonia overages are stopping cycles we can see there. 8ppm gross overdose is the first thread fixed.

you can see how the method is going to work without any testing at all, no matter what brand of bac used, as long as we keep getting lucky nobody has dead bacteria from shipping which is possible.

its why we like at least a little trite or trate or some motion, even though those instances have never been seen in any of my threads ever not once. its to curb the one outlier destined to present one day... you have met all the markers from that ten pager. all chips in on your tank cycle.


that doesn't mean carrying fish as it can will help you skip fallow and QT preps, those still need to be weighed.

the key to our science is that waiting longer does not give you more bacteria on surfaces, a better filter etc.


its full, right now, that's the benefit of knowing a clean start date. start when you should, though.

@brandon429

I'm on day 12 of the cycle with MicroBacter Start XLM and QuikStart. Ammonia steadily decreased down to 0.25 and has stayed there for 4 days now. Nitrite and Nitrate climbed at the same pace for a couple days, then nitrate climbed to 20 for the past 3. Nitrite has been steadily climbing and is currently off the charts. I'm using the API kit, so I know it can't be truly trusted. See chart below....am I safe to do a water change and start adding my fish from QT?

The lights will stay off for at least another 2 weeks, maybe longer. Mechanical filters, Skimmer and UV will be turned on as soon as fish go in. Based on reading your posts and links to other posts, I think I'm cycled, but the API numbers seem to oppose my thinking....

 

[HD_Reefer]

@brandon429

I'm on day 12 of the cycle with MicroBacter Start XLM and QuikStart. Ammonia steadily decreased down to 0.25 and has stayed there for 4 days now. Nitrite and Nitrate climbed at the same pace for a couple days, then nitrate climbed to 20 for the past 3. Nitrite has been steadily climbing and is currently off the charts. I'm using the API kit, so I know it can't be truly trusted. See chart below....am I safe to do a water change and start adding my fish from QT?

The lights will stay off for at least another 2 weeks, maybe longer. Mechanical filters, Skimmer and UV will be turned on as soon as fish go in. Based on reading your posts and links to other posts, I think I'm cycled, but the API numbers seem to oppose my thinking....

Forgot to mention, all dry rock and dry sand. Completely sterile environment to start with.

 

[brandon429]

It still feels so strange even today to buck the old rules (wait timing) I agree. Each time my opinion is typed am aware losing someone’s fish would be so embarrassing but even worse, bad science

bad science would keep me up at night sleepless so I’ve learned to rely on these recurring factors as the alternative to the single point tests, that way something objective still controls the start date:

-degree of surface area, vs being a qt this tank has a high degree of attachment points and wastewater exposure to surfaces. Any activation from bottle bac will be amplified compared to low surface area systems, already in your favor are attachment points

-12 days meets the ammonia control line on a cycle chart, the only lethal param of the three.

it also meets the time the bottle bac have stated
your testing showed movement by this date

-you mention ammonia down from a higher degree noted we base 99% of allowed starts on that alone


-if we reference Dr Reefs massive 90 page bottle bac thread, every strain tested was ready and immune to a total water change by day twelve. No reason for this bottle to be an outlier

-nitrate, even if just inflated nitrite is still conversion and it’s rising.

Just wanted to show how we don’t take a given non compliant reef and just state they’re ready as a guess. your tank meets every marker -except- api and that makes me confident whatever fish you add will live and the tank will carry their feeding if not wasteful.

*always allowing for acclimation or stress events that occasionally kill fish, crash events are tankwide not selective. If the tank simply cannot support life you’ll know in 48 hours with no testing at all, and some aspect of the markers above need adjusting. The water will cloud if not cycled, clouding is 100% present when bioload overcomes a filter it’ll never happen in crystal clear water.


**pls let us know how they do in a few days after addition. Very helpful science that will be, inspection of new cycling science predictions. Not only is api a concern, but you’re using what we consider to be the slowest bac, it’s not trending that way lately though. Brightwell is meeting more and more biomarkers like all the other brands nowadays.

the biggest impact to aquarium microbiology in 2021 will be when someone runs a calibrated seneye machine on this type of cycle above as an accurate measure, for once. We will then be able to physically measure updated cycling science against the old.

 

[brandon429]

Hey look how your chart follows an 80 year + old cycling chart for the ammonia line that’s amazing it really is. This is clue that binds us lol

it follows the trajectory and timing to a T just about. yay




****api and red sea are both good at showing the drop, just not the originating or resulting final levels***
I’m assuming your kit has an ammonium chloride component for feed, or that you added some during the wait.

 

[Salty2]

change water and begin, the nitrites aren't factored in updated cycling science. I have a large work thread showing several tanks exactly like this doing fine, plus all the dry rock setups they make at reef conventions to show the power of bottle bac are given 2 days to prepare, not almost 4 weeks. then they stack them in clownfish to show the skip cycle...that time above alone fulfills a standard cycling chart anyway, can begin.

even if you didnt do a water change, and began now, that's fine nothing will be burned, harmed etc.

Its to export algae fuel water ideally, the initial water change.

there is a greater chance your test is misreading than not, but even if its not (nitrite control is ~25 days on a cycling chart) it still doesnt matter, we no longer factor nitrite in anything that has to do with display tank reefing. Randy shows why its a chemically inert compound in our systems in his chem forum, and then by omitting it further we don't miss practical start dates, the date on the directions for dr tims is about ten days, it was ready a while back.

So you are saying that if the tank is cycling and there is zero ammonia and high nitrites and nitrates it is ready?

 

[brandon429]

Yes I know how cra that sounds so consider our testing thread we have at least twenty or thirty now running with updates:

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Updated Cycling Science in Action This is a testless reef tank cycling thread, the only one from any board. If you ever had trouble with reef tank cycling in the past, you won't any longer after working some jobs with us. chances are you are using/about to use a method of reef tank cycling...

www.reef2reef.com

it’s true only ammonia controls matters if a certain start date is wanted, nitrite doesn’t burn or harm anything we keep

lately I’m seeing friends who simply enjoy the completed cycle including nitrite and nitrate for the totality of it all and there’s no harm choosing. Here’s our merry band of speedsters though above


the thing I advocate is starting on the date the bottle bac label instructions said, they study that stuff well. We aren’t breaking too many rules once we get past ten days time with feed, water and some bac in place

 

[brandon429]

I didn’t see if you’ve fed the dosed bacteria with ammonia or not most folks do, it’s on the instructions. But even if you didn’t it’ll still work, microscopic feed gets in anyway given several days wait. The reason this keeps working out for us in test threads is because a common starting bioload in a reef tank isn’t all that hard to handle for today’s able bottled bacteria. Even if you sway from directions, it’s still live water bac we are adding to water, they’ll figure things out.

 

[Reef craze]

Not sure if anyone still looks at this thread. I have a cycling issue. So doing a fishless cycle set up tank added dr Tim’s bacteria one and only added 2ppm ammonia to start the cycle and added when told to dose ammonia my tests are all over the place. Added a photo of tests. Tank is 92 corner with 20 gallon sump.

 

[brandon429]

are you past day ten of submersion time

 

[Garf]

Not sure if anyone still looks at this thread. I have a cycling issue. So doing a fishless cycle set up tank added dr Tim’s bacteria one and only added 2ppm ammonia to start the cycle and added when told to dose ammonia my tests are all over the place. Added a photo of tests. Tank is 92 corner with 20 gallon sump.

Are you sure your testing for NH3?, it’s very high, if you are.