High Phosphate Experience Wanted - At what PPM level does phosphate impact your SPS?

[Drew589]

Tank shot attached, this one been setup since December

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Thanks for the experience share!

I have no visible algea but that's likely because of the tangs and snails and low nitrates.

The tank looks great. I'm just worried I'm going to wake up one morning to dying acros because phosphates got too high. I'm trying to find where others find that ceiling in hopes that it will help me set a max threshold and start running GFO if I approach it.

two natural methods being used are gorgonians and/or certain digitata corals. To determine low PO4 in tanks

 

[RichtheReefer21]

If this isnt a @Rakie thread idk what is.

 

[Frag_mad]

Over the past twelve months my po4 has been as high as .5 averaging around .3 for the majority. What I noticed about elevated levels of po4 was it didn’t seem to affect colour of my acros but seriously impacted growth. Kh usage at higher levels of po4 was approximately 0.2dkh per day. Now my po4 is a lot lower usage is around 0.7dkh.

 

[Sdot]

Over the past twelve months my po4 has been as high as .5 averaging around .3 for the majority. What I noticed about elevated levels of po4 was it didn’t seem to affect colour of my acros but seriously impacted growth. Kh usage at higher levels of po4 was approximately 0.2dkh per day. Now my po4 is a lot lower usage is around 0.7dkh.

I am dealing with the same. I have finally decided to remove the excess with Phosguard. I was initially dosing Phosphorus and nitrate due to low nutrients and while my nitrate are dialed in... my phosphate have been going up and for the past few weeks im been hitting .3 -.4 range. Looking at my consumption from the trident... i have had to lower my alk and cal dosage because my corals bicarbonate consumption has dropped. Im still getting growth... not as fast.. but no more RTN and STN...although my purple stylo is losing tissue because of the high phosphate...i suspect.

 

[movoleg]

Hello, my level of PO4 is about 0.2 (Hanna). But my NO3 is not detected (Salifert).

Ca 420
Mg 1350
KH 7-7.5

Reef is 1.5 year old. My LPS and soft corals look worse then when NO3 was about 5. I try to increase feeding but it doesn't help. I usually feed by frozen artemia and dry granules.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

It has been shown inorganic phosphate influences coral growth and calcification. Increasing phosphates in combination with the availability of other essentials may increase growth and the calcification rate. P enrichment improves calcification in corals but can worsen skeletal firmness. (ShantzAndBurkepile2014) ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:chemie:calcificatie
About the phosphate level which will harm corals? The level measured is inorganic phosphate not used up yet. One may measure 0 having a very active phosphorus recycling where needed, one may measure 0,2ppm phosphate and create phosphorus starvation. It is all about the activity rates and possible water exchange rates in the microbial world where it all happens. In nature, corals are mainly dependable on organic nutrients cycled in the coral holobiont. Corals seem to be able to manage growth rates by releasing organic carbon and phosphorus by mucus excretion this way managing heterotrophic growth rates, remineralization, and CO2 supply for the symbiodinium. For not to interfere much the surrounding waters should be low in nitrogen and phosphorus but available and of coarse have a low DOC content.
It is known that phosphorus starvation is the main factor for coral bleaching, during periods of increased growth (increased temp!?) supported by nitrogen availability . It is known insufficient supply of phosphorus will harm corals fast, an insufficient supply of nitrogen will harm corals only after a period of time. That is why phosphorus availability is best NOT the limiting factor for growth.
In a closed system temp deviations are difficult to avoid and to minimize the risk for the nutrient reserve, phosphate, and nitrate, may become responsible for insufficient nutrient supply, it is best to manage these reserves in a way nitrate availability may not be responsible for phosphorus starvation and to make the nitrogen reserve to become the limiting factor, in practice the nitrate reserve not to exceed 9 x the phosphate reserve in weight.
Is there a safe minimum and maximum phosphate level? I would try to keep the phosphate level measurable at all times in balance with nitrate availability. The best parameter for nutrient management is still algae growth. If a reserve is not measured and algae grow well there should be no problem. If a reserve is present and algae do not grow I would start to worry.

 

[jreece11]

My phosphate usually runs around 1.0. Not that I want it that high, but it stays there pretty much no matter what I do. Tank has been set up for 10 years. I do battle patches of algae now and then. I quit cashing numbers and just let it ride.

Well I think your results speak for themselves. Beautiful tank!

 

[jreece11]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, really helpful!

I think I’m going to relax a little and keep an eye on health and keep it all stable where it is.

I’ll pay closer attention to growth rates. Calcium is being sucked up at a high rate so I think that’s a good thing. This 280G is in early year one, with corals going in around March, so most are under 4” as frags are just starting to branch out.

Thanks again for all the helpful replies. I’ll post back to this thread over the next couple months with results and actions.

 

[SMB]

I measure PO4 with Hanna ULR checker and run 0.14 and was worried that was high. Ran an ICP test on the same sample and PO4 was 0.03. Thought it might be the reagent so I got a new batch of packets and ran side by side tests again. Same results. Hanna states their PO4 results have a margin of error of +/- .05.
So if you want to find what your PO4, phosphorus, nitrate levels really are, I would start with an ICP test. Then you can know the range of your at home kits.

 

[Chaz D]

I measure PO4 with Hanna ULR checker and run 0.14 and was worried that was high. Ran an ICP test on the same sample and PO4 was 0.03. Thought it might be the reagent so I got a new batch of packets and ran side by side tests again. Same results. Hanna states their PO4 results have a margin of error of +/- .05.
So if you want to find what your PO4, phosphorus, nitrate levels really are, I would start with an ICP test. Then you can know the range of your at home kits.

This has been my experience with the Hanna 774 checker. I tested .12 before sending off a sample, Triton came back at .017. Quite the discrepancy.

 

[KimG]

I measure PO4 with Hanna ULR checker and run 0.14 and was worried that was high. Ran an ICP test on the same sample and PO4 was 0.03. Thought it might be the reagent so I got a new batch of packets and ran side by side tests again. Same results. Hanna states their PO4 results have a margin of error of +/- .05.
So if you want to find what your PO4, phosphorus, nitrate levels really are, I would start with an ICP test. Then you can know the range of your at home kits.

I would be careful with trusting the ICP test over the Hanna.
While the ICP test should be more precise, because is not preserved, bacterial activity will go on as samples are shipped. While the phosphate will not leave the sample it could be absorbed by bacteria. So it will depend on how the sample is treated by the ICP companies. There is a discussion about this in a thread in the chemistry section.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

It has been shown inorganic phosphate influences coral growth and calcification. Increasing phosphates in combination with the availability of other essentials may increase growth and the calcification rate. P enrichment improves calcification in corals but can worsen skeletal firmness. (ShantzAndBurkepile2014) ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:chemie:calcificatie
About the phosphate level which will harm corals? The level measured is inorganic phosphate not used up yet. One may measure 0 having a very active phosphorus recycling where needed, one may measure 0,2ppm phosphate and create phosphorus starvation. It is all about the activity rates and possible water exchange rates in the microbial world where it all happens. In nature, corals are mainly dependable on organic nutrients cycled in the coral holobiont. Corals seem to be able to manage growth rates by releasing organic carbon and phosphorus by mucus excretion this way managing heterotrophic growth rates, remineralization, and CO2 supply for the symbiodinium. For not to interfere much the surrounding waters should be low in nitrogen and phosphorus but available and of coarse have a low DOC content.
It is known that phosphorus starvation is the main factor for coral bleaching, during periods of increased growth (increased temp!?) supported by nitrogen availability . It is known insufficient supply of phosphorus will harm corals fast, an insufficient supply of nitrogen will harm corals only after a period of time. That is why phosphorus availability is best NOT the limiting factor for growth.
In a closed system temp deviations are difficult to avoid and to minimize the risk for the nutrient reserve, phosphate, and nitrate, may become responsible for insufficient nutrient supply, it is best to manage these reserves in a way nitrate availability may not be responsible for phosphorus starvation and to make the nitrogen reserve to become the limiting factor, in practice the nitrate reserve not to exceed 9 x the phosphate reserve in weight.
Is there a safe minimum and maximum phosphate level? I would try to keep the phosphate level measurable at all times in balance with nitrate availability. The best parameter for nutrient management is still algae growth. If a reserve is not measured and algae grow well there should be no problem. If a reserve is present and algae do not grow I would start to worry.

Can we get a TLR

One thing that I observed when my dropped my phosphate from whatever it was (out of range, blue test water) to 0.07ppm was Acroporas stn at the base.

 

[BrandoNy]

Good info in this thread.
Does anyone have a chart that shows where nitrate and phosphate should be at in relation to alkalinity ?

 

[RetiredDoc59]

Wow. Huge discrepancies in testing. Off the shelf vs professional labs and the labs not looking good???
90 g mixed reef. 100 pounds rock. 3 years old. I dose nothing. Use instant ocean reef. By Hanna I get Phos at 0.2. Alk at 4.9. ATI lab gets 0.17 and 5.1. Mg 1395. Ca at 510. Nitrates 20. Stable at these numbers quite a while. You can’t isolate and treat one parameter artificially without upsetting the delicate balances. Suck out phos and what happens to other elements?
That said. In my tank Acros will not grow. Huge birds nest, purple stylo, chalices. Shrooms, leathers, scolys, trimming zoas, two 6 inch clams, montis growing slowly. I have to be in the not broken, no fix camp. I also believe in active turkey basting and the more rock the bigger buffering capacity, microbial population.

 

[Gordonm]

I use the hanna ULR Phosphorus checker and recently saw numbers in the 60s (which means ~0.2ppm Phosphate).
I saw widespread death of montipora, burned tips on Acropora, LPS were not impacted.
I usually try to keep my phosphate around 0.04 or 0.05ppm phosphate.

Other water properties:
Nitrate 8-12 ppm
Alk: ~8 dkh
Mag: 1440 ppm
Temp: About 79 deg F
Calcium: 450ppm

Cause:
I usually do not feed flake food, just frozen. Recently (2-3 months ago) I decided what the heck, ill put flake and pellet in when I feed, see how the fish like it. I had no idea this stuff was like phosphate in a jar. So within a month, my phosphate went from 0.05 to 0.2 (I feed pretty heavily).

I am now trying to fight the phosphate down with GFO, and it got to 0.1ppm fast, but now is taking ages to get lower (I think rocks are now leaching phosphate they stored).

I am relatively certain that I made everything (corals) pretty angry by allowing the phosphate to go sky high and then come back down rather quickly.

I will say it is interesting that particular corals were way more upset than others. Montis - dead, TGC Pink Cadillac Acro - Thrilled and growing... weird.

I'm i not reading this right when u said you saw numbers in the 60's and it meant 0.02???????

 

[HB AL]

I think corals love high phosphates, problem is algae does to, so you gotta find a balance.

 

[NeverlosT]

I'm i not reading this right when u said you saw numbers in the 60's and it meant 0.02???????

Numbers in the 60s meant 0.2ppm

I also did a triton test and it confirmed 0.19ppm Phosphate.

Oddly enough @HB AL I have high nutrients and zero algae. Like a tiny tiny bit of turf algae in the frag tank, but none in the DT. I almost wish I had some algae to consume the nutrients...

 

[NeverlosT]

Wow. Huge discrepancies in testing. Off the shelf vs professional labs and the labs not looking good???
90 g mixed reef. 100 pounds rock. 3 years old. I dose nothing. Use instant ocean reef. By Hanna I get Phos at 0.2. Alk at 4.9. ATI lab gets 0.17 and 5.1. Mg 1395. Ca at 510. Nitrates 20. Stable at these numbers quite a while. You can’t isolate and treat one parameter artificially without upsetting the delicate balances. Suck out phos and what happens to other elements?
That said. In my tank Acros will not grow. Huge birds nest, purple stylo, chalices. Shrooms, leathers, scolys, trimming zoas, two 6 inch clams, montis growing slowly. I have to be in the not broken, no fix camp. I also believe in active turkey basting and the more rock the bigger buffering capacity, microbial population.

Here is a good link: ReefKeeping RHF article on phosphate

Quote that may explain some of your SPS growth challenges "The presence of phosphate in the water also decreases calcification in corals". Your phosphate is pretty high, maybe that is slowing Acro growth?

 

[Gordonm]

Numbers in the 60s meant 0.2ppm

I also did a triton test and it confirmed 0.19ppm Phosphate.

Oddly enough @HB AL I have high nutrients and zero algae. Like a tiny tiny bit of turf algae in the frag tank, but none in the DT. I almost wish I had some algae to consume the nutrients...

Misread it sorry