History was made with the $24,999.99 fish!

[Silver14SS]

Are any of those links of Live Aquaria doing it? If it's random people doing it, I don't see how that will help prove your point that this specific sale was a fake.

 

[sde1500]

I would love it if anyone knows that this buyer exists, period. We dont want his name. Just proof someone bought it.

Where am I going here?

Online vendors/forum sellers can easily "fake" a sale to create a market. Look at this thread. It has created an impression that there is demand at 25k for this fish. Perhaps 15k is the true equilibrium, but next time it pops up for sale wealthy buyers will jump on it for 25k bc a comp has been established.

Did you miss the below comment?

I actually was at the home last weekend where this fish is going. The owner, whose a friend currently has a peppermint and three captive bred G. personatus angels. The Gp are about five years old at this point. It's been a while so some on R2R may not recall the story about the Gp angels and how they came to be. It was amazing seeing such a collection of rare fish under one roof. His fish are from this batch:

I was able to grab a quick iPhone video of the fish in their temporary homes. In the background is the 16,000 gallon tank still under construction. Wishing him the best of luck with the new arrival.

 

[Thales]

I understand most of the arguments here but lets use a reality check here or some real common sense.

There is nothing unethical about this. Like it or not that's the fact. I am not throwing stones or belittling anyone here.
Though some have bowed out of the thread I am sure your reading it anyway.
If this fish is the one that breaks the ethical code then well...… in reality don't they all?

The very first captive fish ever by a human and put into a glass box is/was wrong and unethical, and has been going on for a millennia.

I ask everyone in here why are we upset at this guy and put him/her on the chopping block for buying the Peppermint Angel?

I ask what is more unethical?

little girl or boy who go to the fish store for the first time, and just have to have that first fish.
So they buy to small a tank, inadequate filter, some water conditioner, and the wrong fish for the setup.
They don't know how to care for it, the parents don't know how, they drop the bag in the parking lot because the child has to hold the fish, while the parents hold the hardware, and its dead within a few days.
Yea the store owner or employee try's to provide a five min care guide but hell, We all know the outcome don't we.

What do you call that? Raise of hands here how many of you have seen this first hand in the LFS and know that the fish going out of the store is doomed, but just watch it happen and can't do anything about it.

I have never found an article on R2R about that situation? Anyone else find that subject in the forums?

But lets raise cane on ONE expensive rare fish, but turn a blind eye, and 0 comments on the hundreds of thousands of cheap fish.
​

YES I am ASSUMING here, the person(s) who buy such rare and expensive fish are educated and or have people around them who are educated and understand what's needed for the fishes proper care. That fish will live one-hundred times longer than most of the cheap first time fish.

I just don't see buying a rare expensive fish no matter its natural environment being unethical, but what can I say that's my two cents worth of opinion. YMMV.

We are the top of the food chain, therefore we have control over the animals we share the world with.
But alas we are also humans that make a lot of mistakes, but in the long run do learn from them.
We cant learn unless we observe.

Here's one I will be castrated for.
I don't believe in Hunting. That's just a human that wants to kill something period.
However they have the right and I can respect that, I will never protest against hunting, or the hunter, but I feel its wrong none the less.
Yes I eat meat, and I know the animal has to die so I can eat it, and yes I feel its ok.
So I am a bad and hypocritical person I guess. That's being a real human in this world.

I have written several ethics articles you might find interesting - here are two. I’d love to know what you think.
http://packedhead.net/2015/skeptical-reefkeeping-13-is-the-hobby-morally-justifiable/

http://packedhead.net/2013/skeptical-reefkeeping-vii-a-look-at-ethics/

 

[Thales]

the saying " More money thank sense " comes to mind. As has already been said on here , if it normally lives around 400 ft its organs will not work correctly in 2 feet of water , and if it has gone to a public aquarium somewhere , the public wont bother , its just another prity fish to them. If they are so rare, leave them where they belong

Lots of deep water fish acclimate just fine to shallower conditions - though deep water is subjective.

 

[Thales]

The conspiracy theories around this are amazing. When did speculation become fact? Why?

 

[sde1500]

The conspiracy theories around this are amazing. When did speculation become fact? Why?

Only one that I'd be willing to consider is a buyer was lined up ahead of time. A fish of this rarity, and likely challenge, to ensure that a real passionate hobbyist gets it. And not, as some have accused, someone with more money than brains. Get it to a real collector, not someone that just wants to wave their, ahem, member around to impress people. Though those types of people spend stupid money on fish like sharks, to impress others. This fish isn't truly all that amazing, its small, only kinda nice looking. It has rarity going for it, not the things that impress others as much. So I feel like they let it get sold as they do all others, first come first serve. Its not like it was well publicized ahead of time.

 

[Biokabe]

I would love it if anyone knows that this buyer exists, period. We dont want his name. Just proof someone bought it.

Where am I going here?

Online vendors/forum sellers can easily "fake" a sale to create a market. Look at this thread. It has created an impression that there is demand at 25k for this fish. Perhaps 15k is the true equilibrium, but next time it pops up for sale wealthy buyers will jump on it for 25k bc a comp has been established.

Peppermint angels are reasonably well-known in the hobby. They've pretty much always been in the $20,000-$30,000 range - I actually have a coffee mug at work with a pep on it just so I can play the, "Guess how much this fish costs!" game with new coworkers.

In the case of this fish, it's not so much that the fish is terrifically rare... it's that collecting the fish literally puts the diver's life at risk. It typically lives around 400 feet deep, requiring the use of specialized equipment to access them. Diving that deep isn't child's play - there are only a handful of people in the world that can and will dive that deep, and few of them put their skills to work collecting pretty fish for rich people. Last I heard, there were maybe one or two divers in the world who actually collect this fish, and they only go to collect peppermints every so often. Because, you know, they could die trying to collect it.

Saying that someone is trying to create a market for peppermint angels is about on par with saying that someone is trying to create a market for Picasso paintings. That market exists, but the combination of rarity and desirability keeps prices high. Few but the wealthiest will ever have the chance to own one. If captive breeding of peppermints ever happens in significant numbers, we'd likely see prices come crashing down, and then we'd move on to being outraged over the next thing that wealthy people decide to spend their money on.

Wealthy people will decide to spend outrageous sums of money on things that you and I think are ridiculous. That's part of being wealthy.

 

[bbnd]

The conspiracy theories around this are amazing. When did speculation become fact? Why?

HAHAHAHAHA. Not to hard to figure, with all the 24 hour news cycles, social media platforms, and way to many people who believe they know everything about anything. Easy ;Joyful

 

[Doogie D]

I wonder what they are going to use that $50 gift certificate on....

Food???

 

[siggy]

Wealthy people will decide to spend outrageous sums of money on things that you and I think are ridiculous. That's part of being wealthy.

Braganti
STURGEON CENTERPIECE
$34,620

 

[albano]

Braganti
STURGEON CENTERPIECE
$34,620

Still available?

 

[Biokabe]

Braganti
STURGEON CENTERPIECE
$34,620

Man, that thing is glorious...ly bad.

But someone will buy it. Or they won't, and the price will fall on it.

 

[siggy]

Still available?

enjoy
https://artemest.com/products/sturg...oXA_wlYTy5O1clcpXYyauDA6bfzjyItRoCaIkQAvD_BwE

 

[Thales]

It's funny to me that people that participate in the luxury hobby have opinions about how others spend their money.

 

[Biokabe]

It's funny to me that people that participate in the luxury hobby have opinions about how others spend their money.

Often, it seems that people want the product but don't want to pay the price, so they try to convince their fellow hobbyists that we're all overpaying and should be ashamed of our foolishness. Even if that were a winning strategy, for every one of us that they can scold on the forums, there are many times more who don't visit the forums that don't realize that Joe the Reefer thinks they're overpaying.

 

[Nburg's Reef]

While its a nice looking fish, i really think there are much prettier dwarf angels that are prettier. 100% for bragging rights.

 

[Scott Campbell]

I have written several ethics articles you might find interesting - here are two. I’d love to know what you think.
http://packedhead.net/2015/skeptical-reefkeeping-13-is-the-hobby-morally-justifiable/

http://packedhead.net/2013/skeptical-reefkeeping-vii-a-look-at-ethics/

Greatly enjoyed these two articles.

My son pressed me for years to become a vegetarian. I resisted despite compelling ethical arguments to give up eating animals – mostly because I simply enjoyed eating meat. I was aware the practice caused animal suffering but that knowledge alone was not enough to alter my behavior. The ethical arguments against killing and eating animals are generally more powerful than the ethical arguments against keeping animals as pets. What ended up hitting me hard was an article that showed meat consumption was not a sustainable way to feed our planet. It takes many times the resources to feed people meat as compared to feeding people plants. And this was degrading the world my son and his future children would grow up in. I haven’t eaten meat for over three years now.

This seems relevant to your articles in the sense that perspective matters greatly. What happens to a single fish or even millions of fish can often be given an ethical justification. Maybe the ethical justifications are not always particularly compelling but they will exist nonetheless. And beyond that we can always just put the matter out of mind while we act as we wish to act. But if it can be shown that we are endangering our own well-being and the well-being of those we care about most by continuing to act in a certain manner – that is a powerful motivation to change behavior. And I believe this is starting to happen in our hobby. There is a growing realization that our hobby needs to become self-sustainable or the hobby may cease to exist. And that we need to protect the reefs these animals come from or the animals may cease to exist. I loved the back and forth between you and Nathan Hill - but I believe basic self-interest gained from a broader perspective is likely to generate more positive change in this hobby than setting out ethical guidelines.

Is it ethical to keep fish as pets? As you note – maybe. There are too many variables and nuances to make any solid assertion. But perhaps all that matters is taking action to keep the hobby we love viable and to sustain the natural habitats these animals we love exist in. And I will agree with Nathan in believing the hobbyists, rather than the industry, will be the driving force behind that change.

Thanks for your wonderful posts! Always thought provoking!

 

[K7BMG]

I have written several ethics articles you might find interesting - here are two. I’d love to know what you think.
http://packedhead.net/2015/skeptical-reefkeeping-13-is-the-hobby-morally-justifiable/

http://packedhead.net/2013/skeptical-reefkeeping-vii-a-look-at-ethics/

Thank you for the links, looks like a long read but I will get to it and render my thoughts if I can.
It will just take a bit as I have a very loaded plate.

 

[Tommy's Reef]

So some of you may know that I'm the one who bought the peppermint. It's in my third mansion I've bought, with my 5th wife keeping watch over my 30,000 gallon reef.
He has a nice view next to my Bugatti and Lamborghini collection. And gets hand feed sirloin steak, and skittles. He should be real happy being housed with my other 2000 peppermint Angel's.
YOLO!

 

[Brian1f1]

Did you miss the below comment?

I’m actually friends with the guy on FB.