HLLE causes

[Reef Wizard]

Good Evening,

I was wanting to know what are the main causes of HLLE?

I have been reading that carbon bad diet and high nitrates can cause HLLE.

Are they any others that anyone has noticed?

Can running Biopellets or GFO in a reactor cause HLLE?
Can you run pre mixed Carbon such as chemipure elite or blue?
Is ROX 0.8 the only "Safe" carbon?

Those are my main questions for this post

I do NOT have a fish with HLLE just a few questions for learning and for others to learn as well

Posting this here as well

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

Unfortunately - I dont have a link to @Jay Hemdal article - but - it could explain what you want - its certainly multifactorial - and it makes no sense to try to go into all of that here - when Jay has written a great article on it - sorry about the 'cop out' - but I hope Jay will answer soon with a link

 

[Reef Wizard]

Unfortunately - I dont have a link to @Jay Hemdal article - but - it could explain what you want - its certainly multifactorial - and it makes no sense to try to go into all of that here - when Jay has written a great article on it - sorry about the 'cop out' - but I hope Jay will answer soon with a link

The article I posted above is written by him perhaps there is another

 

[MnFish1]

Good Evening,

I was wanting to know what are the main causes of HLLE?

I have been reading that carbon bad diet and high nitrates can cause HLLE.

Are they any others that anyone has noticed?

Can running Biopellets or GFO in a reactor cause HLLE?
Can you run pre mixed Carbon such as chemipure elite or blue?
Is ROX 0.8 the only "Safe" carbon?

Those are my main questions for this post

I do NOT have a fish with HLLE just a few questions for learning and for others to learn as well

Posting this here as well

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

my guess is that this article answers the questions

 

[vetteguy53081]

Good Evening,

I was wanting to know what are the main causes of HLLE?

I have been reading that carbon bad diet and high nitrates can cause HLLE.

Are they any others that anyone has noticed?

Can running Biopellets or GFO in a reactor cause HLLE?
Can you run pre mixed Carbon such as chemipure elite or blue?
Is ROX 0.8 the only "Safe" carbon?

Those are my main questions for this post

I do NOT have a fish with HLLE just a few questions for learning and for others to learn as well

Posting this here as well

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

often due to vitamin deficiency and poor water quality which causes pits and flesh missing mainly in tangs, angels and some rabbitfish. It is often caused by poor water quality, high use of carbon, poor water quality (elevated nitrate and ammonia) and inadequate/poor diet. It is not life threating in any way but offers secondary infection in some cases.
Maintaining GOOD water quality and diet are often the fixes and with severe cases, some healing.
Some foods to feed tang are :
LRS herbivore diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
TDO Pellets
small plankton
Hikari Marine cuisine
Ocean nutrition veggie diet
spirulina brine shrimp
mysis shrimp
Prime reef
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract

Add selcon vitamins to foods occasionally

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Good Evening,

I was wanting to know what are the main causes of HLLE?

I have been reading that carbon bad diet and high nitrates can cause HLLE.

Are they any others that anyone has noticed?

Can running Biopellets or GFO in a reactor cause HLLE?
Can you run pre mixed Carbon such as chemipure elite or blue?
Is ROX 0.8 the only "Safe" carbon?

Those are my main questions for this post

I do NOT have a fish with HLLE just a few questions for learning and for others to learn as well

Posting this here as well

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

ROX 0.8 carbon is certainly safer to use than lignite carbon. Never use any carbon in a powerful reactor, where it gets tumbled.

I've not had issues with Chemi Pure, as long as you rinse the bags well.

I've not tested Biopellets or GFO as a cause of HLLE, I've only heard really vague rumors about that, mostly based on the idea that if carbon dust causes HLLE, can dust from other products do so as well?

You hear a lot about nutritional deficiencies causing this, or good nutrition curing it, but that has no affect on carbon induced HLLE - I did an "after study" where I changed the diets of my test fish - the control fish diet was changed to literally the worst diet I had, and the fish that I had induced HLLE in with carbon were given the best possible diet. It had NO affect on the outcome.

 

[Reef Wizard]

ROX 0.8 carbon is certainly safer to use than lignite carbon. Never use any carbon in a powerful reactor, where it gets tumbled.

I've not had issues with Chemi Pure, as long as you rinse the bags well.

I've not tested Biopellets or GFO as a cause of HLLE, I've only heard really vague rumors about that, mostly based on the idea that if carbon dust causes HLLE, can dust from other products do so as well?

You hear a lot about nutritional deficiencies causing this, or good nutrition curing it, but that has no affect on carbon induced HLLE - I did an "after study" where I changed the diets of my test fish - the control fish diet was changed to literally the worst diet I had, and the fish that I had induced HLLE in with carbon were given the best possible diet. It had NO affect on the outcome.

Thank you for the response sir.

Is the whole dust issue a problem due to it getting lodged in the slime coat or something to that effect?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for the response sir.

Is the whole dust issue a problem due to it getting lodged in the slime coat or something to that effect?

We don't know. The Disney veterinarian suspects it is because the carbon removes organic compounds from the water that would otherwise bind/chelate with heavy metals, rendering them more toxic. When carbon is used, he suspects that the heavy metals (copper and zinc, etc.) are changed to their "base" form and become an irritant to the fish. I discount that hypothesis because the "heavy metals" are never found to be at rates higher than in my control tanks. Also, you would then see massive HLLE with copper medications, and that just doesn't happen.

My hypothesis is that it is the dust. Reason being - I've had two cases where all carbon was removed from a system, the water 100% changed, and fish in it would still develop HLLE - and then careful observation would find some carbon fines left in the sump, etc. When those were removed, the tank stopped causing fish to develop HLLE. I had a researcher in California tell my that he found carbon fines IN the lateral lines of fish with HLLE, but he didn't publish, so that is just an anecdote.

 

[Reef Wizard]

We don't know. The Disney veterinarian suspects it is because the carbon removes organic compounds from the water that would otherwise bind/chelate with heavy metals, rendering them more toxic. When carbon is used, he suspects that the heavy metals (copper and zinc, etc.) are changed to their "base" form and become an irritant to the fish. I discount that hypothesis because the "heavy metals" are never found to be at rates higher than in my control tanks. Also, you would then see massive HLLE with copper medications, and that just doesn't happen.

My hypothesis is that it is the dust. Reason being - I've had two cases where all carbon was removed from a system, the water 100% changed, and fish in it would still develop HLLE - and then careful observation would find some carbon fines left in the sump, etc. When those were removed, the tank stopped causing fish to develop HLLE. I had a researcher in California tell my that he found carbon fines IN the lateral lines of fish with HLLE, but he didn't publish, so that is just an anecdote.

Interesting thank you sir!

 

[Paul B]

I personally don't think it has anything to do with stray electricity, food or metals. It is a condition of confinement. Carbon may have something to do with it but I am not 100% convinced.

HLLE almost always starts where the lateral line enters the head and all the impulses from that line of nerves go through there.

I feel that lateral line which is really "Remote Feel" (Robert Straughn) or a fishes sonar gets overly stimulated from the inputs in a tank specifically the glass sides of a tank including the bottom and surface of the water.

No fish lives in the sea in 14" of water with glass a couple of feet all around them. Glass they can't see or swim through but the fish knows something is there preventing them from going into deeper "safer" water.

HLLE is actually a peeling of their epidermis and carbon or anything else in the water would get stuck in those pores.

So my theory is the cause is captivity as in my almost 400 hours underwater, I have never seen it in the sea.

Stress exasperates it as stress makes everything worse. Just my theory.

 

[Reef Wizard]

I personally don't think it has anything to do with stray electricity, food or metals. It is a condition of confinement. Carbon may have something to do with it but I am not 100% convinced.

HLLE almost always starts where the lateral line enters the head and all the impulses from that line of nerves go through there.

I feel that lateral line which is really "Remote Feel" (Robert Straughn) or a fishes sonar gets overly stimulated from the inputs in a tank specifically the glass sides of a tank including the bottom and surface of the water.

No fish lives in the sea in 14" of water with glass a couple of feet all around them. Glass they can't see or swim through but the fish knows something is there preventing them from going into deeper "safer" water.

HLLE is actually a peeling of their epidermis and carbon or anything else in the water would get stuck in those pores.

So my theory is the cause is captivity as in my almost 400 hours underwater, I have never seen it in the sea.

Stress exasperates it as stress makes everything worse. Just my theory.

Thank you for the write up!

 

[MnFish1]

I personally don't think it has anything to do with stray electricity, food or metals. It is a condition of confinement. Carbon may have something to do with it but I am not 100% convinced.

HLLE almost always starts where the lateral line enters the head and all the impulses from that line of nerves go through there.

I feel that lateral line which is really "Remote Feel" (Robert Straughn) or a fishes sonar gets overly stimulated from the inputs in a tank specifically the glass sides of a tank including the bottom and surface of the water.

No fish lives in the sea in 14" of water with glass a couple of feet all around them. Glass they can't see or swim through but the fish knows something is there preventing them from going into deeper "safer" water.

HLLE is actually a peeling of their epidermis and carbon or anything else in the water would get stuck in those pores.

So my theory is the cause is captivity as in my almost 400 hours underwater, I have never seen it in the sea.

Stress exasperates it as stress makes everything worse. Just my theory.

Interesting theory - and possibly true - however - using your analogy 99% of fish in this stressful environment (a tank) - do not get HLLE. Suggesting it is likely something else.

 

[Paul B]

It is worse on tangs and other schooling fish because their lateral line is more sensitive than other types of fish which allows them to swim inches from each other as they swim.

I also feel other things are involved such as stress which is much more powerful if their tank isn't set up correctly with enough hiding places and correct food with living gut bacteria.

Of course, this is only my theory. But I like it.

Also, not all tanks that use carbon have HLLE.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I would disagree with this: "It is worse on tangs and other schooling fish because their lateral line is more sensitive than other types of fish which allows them to swim inches from each other as they swim." Here is my list of families of fish that I've seen HLLE in:

Acanthuridae Blenniidae Ceratodontiformes Chaetodontidae Cichlidae Gadidae Grammatidae Haemulidae Labridae Lutjanidae Muraenidae Percichthyidae Percidae Plesiopidae Pomacanthidae Pomacentridae Scorpaenidae Serranidae

Surgeonfishes Combtooth blennies Lungfishes Butterflyfishes Cichlids Cods Basslets and grammas Grunts Wrasses Snappers Moray eels Temperate perches Perches Roundheads Angelfishes Damselfishes Scorpionfishes Sea basses and soapfishes

The vast majority of these fish are non-schooling species. In fact, only the tangs and grunts are typically schooling species.

I have never found a commonality in the types of fish afflicted with HLLE and those that never get it. Scale type varies across the groups. The only commonality is that with the exception of lungfish and cod, HLLE is only seen in spiny finned fishes, mostly perciformes.

 

[Paul B]

I would disagree with this:

Good morning Jay. I will disagree with your disagreement.
I do agree that HLLE can be seen on other types of fish, but I didn't say only tangs get it. I said they are "more sensitive" to it.

In my 50+ years of salt water fish keeping I have very rarely seen it (not only seen it) on anything other than tangs or normally schooling fish. That doesn't mean any fish can't get it.

But fish also get it in tanks that don't use carbon.
I still like my theory, but of course I can be wrong.

This tang was in a friends tank. It was the only fish in that tank that had HLLE.


This angel was in the same tank with him for years and he was fine.

 

[MnFish1]

Good morning Jay. I will disagree with your disagreement.
I do agree that HLLE can be seen on other types of fish, but I didn't say only tangs get it. I said they are "more sensitive" to it.

In my 50+ years of salt water fish keeping I have very rarely seen it (not only seen it) on anything other than tangs or normally schooling fish. That doesn't mean any fish can't get it.

But fish also get it in tanks that don't use carbon.
I still like my theory, but of course I can be wrong.

This tang was in a friends tank. It was the only fish in that tank that had HLLE.


This angel was in the same tank with him for years and he was fine.

Isn't that a juvenile angel? I would have thought it would have changed color after years in a tank. Also if I look at its nose - it looks a little like HLLE to me. however that may just a function of the picture.

The reason I questioned your original comment is that by definition, every tank has the type of 'stress' you mentioned - yet HLLE even in tangs is not all that prevalent.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Good morning Jay. I will disagree with your disagreement.
I do agree that HLLE can be seen on other types of fish, but I didn't say only tangs get it. I said they are "more sensitive" to it.

In my 50+ years of salt water fish keeping I have very rarely seen it (not only seen it) on anything other than tangs or normally schooling fish. That doesn't mean any fish can't get it.

But fish also get it in tanks that don't use carbon.
I still like my theory, but of course I can be wrong.

This tang was in a friends tank. It was the only fish in that tank that had HLLE.


This angel was in the same tank with him for years and he was fine.

Paul,

Your hypothesis just isn't borne out by the facts. There are MANY fish that school tightly, (are obligate schooling ) not shoaling) species that just never develop HLLE. Here is just an "off the top" list:

Anthias
Fusiliers
Goatfish
Lookdowns
Jacks
Shrimpfish
Silversides

I may have mentioned this to you before, but I have two photo-documented cases of HLLE in wild fish; a black zebrasoma and a juvenile emperor angelfish.

 

[Reeferbadness]

My Emperor Angle had HLLE (single hole in his forehead) and after doing some reading, i stared giving him a lot of Nori to help. It worked. After about a month the HLLE started to heal and he was fine. So diet is very likely a big part of it. In the wild, Angelfish are primarily herbavores and mine was eating mostly mysis with some pellets. My $0.02

 

[Paul B]

Isn't that a juvenile angel? I would have thought it would have changed color after years in a tank.

It wasn't my fish. But it was about 4 1/2" long so it wasn't exactly a juvinile. He gave me both fish as he got out of the hobby. That yellow tang was really to large for my tank and it looked horrible so I euthanized it as no one wanted it and I don't blame them.

That Koran Angel I gave to a LFS as it was also to large for my likes and I am not that fond of angels.