Holistic reefer & ich

[Subsea]

Ironically, I am now an ongoing case for ich management. It is now on the tail of a recent introduction of a Copper Banded Butterfly Fish into five year mature 120G display tank.. After fish was introduced, almost immediately, he started grazing on rocks and nipping at Aptasia, which made me very happy. Because I have too many irons in the fire, it was a week before I noted a change of behavior. Instead of grazing, I noted him going to & fro without eating. On closer observation, I saw white spot on tail.
Now, 7 days later, in an effort to provide more hiding places and reduce stress, a very large Tonga branch was brought into tank from 150G Rubbermaid growout system. I have chosen not to clean glass which I suspect would add more stress to the tank. I now see one damsel with ich on tail.

It befuddles me to think that ich population density would have mainifested itself in the tank with in 7 days with the introduction of CBB and then effected the damsel. It would be more logical that ich was already established and effected the CBB. However, I saw no evidence of ich: visually with spots or fish behavior. This 5 year mature tank has never seen ich, to the best of my knowledge. My 75G tank at 25 years mature, saw ich 20 years ago and again 10 years ago. In both of those cases, ich was brought into the tank with ich visible on fish in shipping bags.

I will clean up glass for better pictures, but not today. I introduced enough stress with the placement of large Tonga tree.

 

[lapin]

The glass looks pretty clean to me

 

[Subsea]

“It befuddles me to think that ich population density would have mainifested itself in the tank with in 7 days with the introduction of CBB and then effected the damsel. It would be more logical that ich was already established and effected the CBB. However, I saw no evidence of ich: visually with spots or fish behavior. This tank has never seen ich, to the best of my knowledge. My 75G tank at 25 years mature, saw ich 20 years ago and again 10 years ago. In both of those cases, ich was brought into the tank with ich visible on fish in shipping bags.”

@Jay Hemdal
I can”t see ich being brought in with CBB. Not enough time to complete life cycle. Go figure?

I normally run these display tanks between 75-77 degrees and often cross connect them to increase biodiversity. They are cross connected in the picture. Whatever happens to one, will be shared by both.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

“It befuddles me to think that ich population density would have mainifested itself in the tank with in 7 days with the introduction of CBB and then effected the damsel. It would be more logical that ich was already established and effected the CBB. However, I saw no evidence of ich: visually with spots or fish behavior. This tank has never seen ich, to the best of my knowledge. My 75G tank at 25 years mature, saw ich 20 years ago and again 10 years ago. In both of those cases, ich was brought into the tank with ich visible on fish in shipping bags.”

@Jay Hemdal
I can”t see ich being brought in with CBB. Not enough time to complete life cycle. Go figure?

I normally run these display tanks between 75-77 degrees and often cross connect them to increase biodiversity. They are cross connected in the picture. Whatever happens to one, will be shared by both.

I think your diagnosis may have some error. Cryptocaryon/ich doesn't cause a fish to stop feeding until there are hundreds/thousands of trophonts on the fish. At that point, the fish will look all milky colored, with cloudy eyes and rapid breathing. The individual spots will have all coalesced and do not look distinct. I call this stage "stale" or end-stage ich.

A fish with less than about 30 or so trophonts on it will be otherwise symptom-free.

The copperband may well have brought ich into your tank - they are very prone for doing that. The timing is just about typical - 5 to 14 days after arrival to the point where trophonts show on existing fish. I've also seen cases, although not common, where existing fish in a tank develop ich slightly before, or at the same time as the "typhoid Mary" does. More typically, the new fish has a head start on the infection and show spots worse than the existing fish.

I think something else is going on with the CBB that has caused it to stop feeding.

For what it's worth, here is my thread on ich management:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Subsea]

@Jay Hemdal
I read the first page and have some thoughts.

I agree that ich came in with the CBB.

However, the rapid process to multiply to densities necessary to infect other fish does not seem mathematically possible in 14 days, considering dormant stage of ich in substrate before becoming free swimming and able to infect fish thru their slime coat.

Yes, I will crank up the UV sterilizer.

No, I don’t plan to use h202 in bulk tank water. AND, the ratio that you showed of 1ml per liter is 40 fold toooo high to start with.

ONCE, and I will never do it again because I value micro inverts like amphipods & copepods, I dosed 3% hydrogen peroxide at a rate of 1ml per 10G of water during lights out for 5 days. The protocol was to remove unwanted algae like GHA for 10 days. I discontinued at day 5 due to loss of pods.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal
I read the first page and have some thoughts.

I agree that ich came in with the CBB.

However, the rapid process to multiply to densities necessary to infect other fish does not seem mathematically possible in 14 days, considering dormant stage of ich in substrate before becoming free swimming and able to infect fish thru their slime coat.

Yes, I will crank up the UV sterilizer.

No, I don’t plan to use h202 in bulk tank water. AND, the ratio that you showed of 1ml per liter is 40 fold toooo high to start with.

ONCE, and I will never do it again because I value micro inverts like amphipods & copepods, I dosed 3% hydrogen peroxide at a rate of 1ml per 10G of water during lights out for 5 days. The protocol was to remove unwanted algae like GHA for 10 days. I discontinued at day 5 due to loss of pods.

Using math to project ich infections simply doesn't work - too many variables. Worst case, one tomont can release as many as 1000 theronts in as little as 3 days. More typical seems to be around 200 theronts released in 5 days.

I don’t like to use peroxide, I’ve studied it extensively and I'm just not seeing the upside to its use other than people can get ahold of it easily. There is another web site though that uses it for just about everything, so I need to address that, plus it being marketed as peroxide salts for controlling ich.. The dose I listed is what is required to kill ich theronts. That is higher than some invertebrates can handle. I edited the text to make that clearer.

This is a pretty good reference for Cryptocaryon. It relies a little heavy on the works of Colorni (I'm not a fan, he is not an aquarist). However, that information is tempered by Dr. Yanong's editorial, and he does have a great background in fish medicine.

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

 

[Subsea]

Thank you. I actually have Burgess book and will seek to reduce stress and feed well: good fish husbandry / TLC. I claim this excerpt from the book.

Immunity​

“As is seen with other diseases, general fish health and environmental factors including water quality will affect the status of the fish's immune system and may worsen the effects of an infection. If the immune status of the fish is compromised or if environmental factors are less than optimal, Cryptocaryoninfection will be even more explosive and harmful.”

“Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to 6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).“

 

[56longroof]

Try feeding live clams or mussels on the shell. See if that provokes a feeding response from the Copperband. Plus the gut bacteria will benefit the fish if it does take it.

 

[threebuoys]

I second the recommendation to try chopped live clams for the CBB. Two years ago, I bought a CBB to fight aptasia. He made short work of the aptasia over several days. Afterwards, I thought he was eating the pellets I fed to the other fish in the tank. After several days and upon closer observation I realized that although he darted at the pellets like the other fish, he never actually ate any. To keep him alive I began feeding clams which he attacks.

I still haven't been able to get him to eat pellets or anything other than the clams. He will nibble at Nori but not enough to sustain him.

The downside of feeding clams is that I have to feed enough for the entire tank or the CBB will not get enough in the fight for the clams. Initially I felt that was fine but over the course of the two years I've noticed a significant increase in my nitrates and phosphates (which previously were rock steady) as well as a major dino problem. Could be coincidental and due to other factors, but has me scratching my head.

 

[Subsea]

I second the recommendation to try chopped live clams for the CBB. Two years ago, I bought a CBB to fight aptasia. He made short work of the aptasia over several days. Afterwards, I thought he was eating the pellets I fed to the other fish in the tank. After several days and upon closer observation I realized that although he darted at the pellets like the other fish, he never actually ate any. To keep him alive I began feeding clams which he attacks.

I still haven't been able to get him to eat pellets or anything other than the clams. He will nibble at Nori but not enough to sustain him.

The downside of feeding clams is that I have to feed enough for the entire tank or the CBB will not get enough in the fight for the clams. Initially I felt that was fine but over the course of the two years I've noticed a significant increase in my nitrates and phosphates (which previously were rock steady) as well as a major dino problem. Could be coincidental and due to other factors, but has me scratching my head.

Yes, I most assuredly will get some live clams and eat most of them myself. I normally get live mussels for the economy of it. Plus, I use live mussels to make broth for a shrimp “sauce picante or creole”.

While lights are off, I will clean the glass for observation purposes. It is a display tank. I made big dust up when Tonga tree was placed in tank yesterday, to provide more cover for shy fish. Lights on in 4 hours. I am considering leaving lights off for this cycle. Any thoughts? There is plenty of gas exchange in this tank plus a DIY ZOOPLANKTON SEAWEED reactor made from 3’ clear PVC at 3.5’ tall with lights on 24/7.

Time to chill and enjoy the sunset.

 

[lapin]

If you can not get the fish to eat I might be able to bring over some live black worms on Monday. If you need them sooner we might meet near the Salt Lick
Cheers

 

[Subsea]

If you can not get the fish to eat I might be able to bring over some live black worms on Monday. If you need them sooner we might meet near the Salt Lick
Cheers

Thank you my brother. I will know a lot tomorrow morning. Monday sounds good.

Would you better describe how you culture them? Culturing live food that is sustainable is good economics & great animal husbandly. Perfect example of pieces to the pyramid of Holistic Reefer.

 

[lapin]

Thank you my brother. I will know a lot tomorrow morning. Monday sounds good.

Would you better describe how you culture them? Culturing live food that is sustainable is good economics & great animal husbandly. Perfect example of pieces to the pyramid of Holistic Reefer.

I don’t culture them any more . It was a pain to find a place that the temperature was good for them. Texas is just too hot a lot of times. Now I buy a pound each month. Keep them in containers in the garage refrigerator. I feed them nori flakes . Have to change the water every few days. They keep for about a month.
Keep me posted

 

[Subsea]

Lights cane on an hour ago, when I didn’t see CBB in the open, I started looking behind rocks and found him. Breathing was normal and white spot was on tail. Thirty minutes later he was grazing on side of Tonga tree.

 

[threebuoys]

If the white spot on the CCB tail is the large one which appears in a couple of the pictures, I think it may be lymphocystis. Looks too large for parasites. Should heal naturally.

Where does one buy live black worms? Local fish store? my LFS is 120 miles away but I've not seen them there before. Mail order?

 

[Subsea]

This morning, I see a more “settled-in” CBB: grazing on live rock brought in and exploring different cave and overhangs.

There are three remote zooplankton refugiums connected to this 120G display: AquaClear 110 HOB, 40G cryptic refugium filled with live rock & pods and a DIY 40” tall 3” clear PVC with a powerful marine 12VDC LED at 6500K color spectrum.

Pancake cooling fan is also 12VDC. I am maintaining temperature at 75 degrees to slow down metabolism of bacteria and fish and increase oxygen content of water using a 12VDC air pump. These 12VDC end devices are connected to UPS batteries, that are designated for life support.

 

[lapin]

Where does one buy live black worms? Local fish store? my LFS is 120 miles away but I've not seen them there before. Mail order?

Live Blackworms Archives - Eastern Aquatics

easternaquatics.com

 

[Subsea]

Lights out and “All is Quiet on the Water Front”.

Later today, I will clean glass. I have chores outside in my garden.

@lapin
When you come Monday, bring a large basket to pick non-astringent persimmons. The tree was loaded this year and it will be the last year with ugly chicken wire protective fence to keep deer off of it. I have several native persimmon trees on the property that I intend to graft to in the Spring. It was my plan to remove lower branches on cultivated persimmon tree, there-by putting it above deer grazing. However, I have seen the deer, stand on their hind legs and eat from bird feeders here. Go figure.

 

[Subsea]

If the white spot on the CCB tail is the large one which appears in a couple of the pictures, I think it may be lymphocystis. Looks too large for parasites. Should heal naturally.

Where does one buy live black worms? Local fish store? my LFS is 120 miles away but I've not seen them there before. Mail order?

I am all about natural healing. The slime coat on fish is not just a protective barrier against invasion; it is an active participant in adjusting its properties within the slime coat to actively attack/reject the pathogens thru gene expression and natural immunity.

 

[Subsea]

Using math to project ich infections simply doesn't work - too many variables. Worst case, one tomont can release as many as 1000 theronts in as little as 3 days. More typical seems to be around 200 theronts released in 5 days.

I don’t like to use peroxide, I’ve studied it extensively and I'm just not seeing the upside to its use other than people can get ahold of it easily. There is another web site though that uses it for just about everything, so I need to address that, plus it being marketed as peroxide salts for controlling ich.. The dose I listed is what is required to kill ich theronts. That is higher than some invertebrates can handle. I edited the text to make that clearer.

This is a pretty good reference for Cryptocaryon. It relies a little heavy on the works of Colorni (I'm not a fan, he is not an aquarist). However, that information is tempered by Dr. Yanong's editorial, and he does have a great background in fish medicine.

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

“The dose I listed is what is required to kill ich theronts. That is higher than some invertebrates can handle. I edited the text to make that clearer.“

Jay,
It occurs to me that the dosage of peroxide at 1ml per liter of water was actually performed in a controlled experiment. And it was determined to be the intensity required to eliminate ich on fish.

How long was fish exposed to this intensity of peroxide?

Does the peroxide damage fishslime and how do fish gills & fish eyeballs respond to these treatment levels.

WHO realistically has done this?