Holistic reefer & ich

[Jay Hemdal]

“The dose I listed is what is required to kill ich theronts. That is higher than some invertebrates can handle. I edited the text to make that clearer.“

Jay,
It occurs to me that the dosage of peroxide at 1ml per liter of water was actually performed in a controlled experiment. And it was determined to be the intensity required to eliminate ich on fish.

How long was fish exposed to this intensity of peroxide?

Does the peroxide damage fishslime and how do fish gills & fish eyeballs respond to these treatment levels.

WHO realistically has done this?

It wasn’t treating the trophonts ON the fish, it was the amount needed to kill the free floating theronts. Trophonts and tomonts are really tough, anything that will kill them will also harm the fish, therefore only the theront stage is targeted.

As I said, peroxide is very tricky to use - you need to use test strips to know what the remaining active oxidative level level is at all times. People jump through all sorts of hoops with dosing timing to try to guess at a tank’s dosing need, but that’s all wild guessing. The issue is that oxidant dosing is based on the complicated reaction with organics in the water, and that value changes over time as the application of the oxidizers changes the organic loading.

 

[Subsea]

It wasn’t treating the trophonts ON the fish, it was the amount needed to kill the free floating theronts. Trophonts and tomonts are really tough, anything that will kill them will also harm the fish, therefore only the theront stage is targeted.

As I said, peroxide is very tricky to use - you need to use test strips to know what the remaining active oxidative level level is at all times. People jump through all sorts of hoops with dosing timing to try to guess at a tank’s dosing need, but that’s all wild guessing. The issue is that oxidant dosing is based on the complicated reaction with organics in the water, and that value changes over time as the application of the oxidizers changes the organic loading.

Thank you for that clarification.

As a municipal waste water superintendent, we measured oxygen content of the water which assisted with supplying BOD of the activated sluge. We didn’t need to evaluate the complex variables, we used direct measurement of O2. I have an oxygen meter to assist with those things if required.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for that clarification.

As a municipal waste water superintendent, we measured oxygen content of the water which assisted with supplying BOD of the activated sluge. We didn’t need to evaluate the complex variables, we used direct measurement of O2. I have an oxygen meter to assist with those things if required.

Using peroxide is the same as other oxidizers like chlorine and ozone. All three require testing to measure the remaining unreacted oxidizer in the system.

Oxygen itself is a mild oxidizer, but is also used by aerobic organisms. I’m not sure if you see the same trends. Do you increase aeration when the BOD rises?

I use an air injector on my well to oxidize smelling sulfide into sulfate. The oxygen in the air wasn’t quite enough to oxidize all the sulfide, so I installed a peroxide injector. I adjust that by adjusting the flow to the point where the smell goes away, but I’m not getting any free peroxide at the taps.

 

[Tripod1404]

I once accidently dosed something like 1 ml per gallon of 30% hydrogen peroxide. I accidently dropped a container with ~120 ml 30% hydrogen peroxide into the tank while trying to dose from it for algae control. Every coral and the tank started to foam up, which I assume was because their mucus coatings started to oxidize. It took 2-3 days for corals to open up again. Fish were otherwise okay but I lost a cleaner shrimp.

 

[Tripod1404]

Lights cane on an hour ago, when I didn’t see CBB in the open, I started looking behind rocks and found him. Breathing was normal and white spot was on tail. Thirty minutes later he was grazing on side of Tonga tree.

This looks like lympho to me.

 

[Uncle99]

I can’t see one dot in the pics.

The CBB takes some time to adjust.

We should be seeing quite a few spots , round to oval, white to grayish, maybe sugar size, especially on fins, but maybe it’s just the pic.

Can you circle what your see, or provide a better pic?

In some instances it’s better to do nothing at all until a clear diagnosis is made.

 

[Subsea]

I can’t see one dot in the pics.

The CBB takes some time to adjust.

We should be seeing quite a few spots , round to oval, white to grayish, maybe sugar size, especially on fins, but maybe it’s just the pic.

Can you circle what your see, or provide a better pic?

In some instances it’s better to do nothing at all until a clear diagnosis is made.

I don’t plan to change anything except to clean glass to enhance observation.

 

[Subsea]

Using peroxide is the same as other oxidizers like chlorine and ozone. All three require testing to measure the remaining unreacted oxidizer in the system.

Oxygen itself is a mild oxidizer, but is also used by aerobic organisms. I’m not sure if you see the same trends. Do you increase aeration when the BOD rises?

I use an air injector on my well to oxidize smelling sulfide into sulfate. The oxygen in the air wasn’t quite enough to oxidize all the sulfide, so I installed a peroxide injector. I adjust that by adjusting the flow to the point where the smell goes away, but I’m not getting any free peroxide at the taps.

Yes to increasing aeration to keep up with BOD.

Very interesting on how you removed sulfur smell. I set up a seperate tank to degas. However this requires a deep well pump to get water to degassing tank and a second pump at the surface. I now have a constant pressure smart pump and I bypassed degassing tank. Would you send link for peroxide injector? I like that idea because aquifer has a black Cyanobacteria which crashed my phytoplankton cultures.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Using peroxide is the same as other oxidizers like chlorine and ozone. All three require testing to measure the remaining unreacted oxidizer in the system.

Oxygen itself is a mild oxidizer, but is also used by aerobic organisms. I’m not sure if you see the same trends. Do you increase aeration when the BOD rises?

I use an air injector on my well to oxidize smelling sulfide into sulfate. The oxygen in the air wasn’t quite enough to oxidize all the sulfide, so I installed a peroxide injector. I adjust that by adjusting the flow to the point where the smell goes away, but I’m not getting any free peroxide at the taps.

Yes to increasing aeration to keep up with BOD.

Very interesting on how you removed sulfur smell. I set up a seperate tank to degas. However this requires a deep well pump to get water to degassing tank and a second pump at the surface. I now have a constant pressure smart pump and I bypassed degassing tank. Would you send link for peroxide injector? I like that idea because aquifer has a black Cyanobacteria which crashed my phytoplankton cultures.

I built the peroxide injector myself. There is a poly tank that holds 12% peroxide and a Stenner peristaltic dosing pump that draws it up and injects it into the house’s raw water line as it enters the aeration chamber. There is a check valve to keep household water from backing through the pump. The pump is adjustable with a setting of 0 to 10. I forget its flow rate, those are changed by using different sized peristaltic tubes. I have a remote water leak sensor right below it as these rigs can fail (grin).

 

[Subsea]

I built the peroxide injector myself. There is a poly tank that holds 12% peroxide and a Stenner peristaltic dosing pump that draws it up and injects it into the house’s raw water line as it enters the aeration chamber. There is a check valve to keep household water from backing through the pump. The pump is adjustable with a setting of 0 to 10. I forget its flow rate, those are changed by using different sized peristaltic tubes. I have a remote water leak sensor right below it as these rigs can fail (grin).

Good stuff.
If I do this it will be a DIY. I googled peroxide injection and cost started at $1000.

 

[Jbrew]

So what i'm about to say goes against pretty much everything everyone tells you to do but this is my experience and mine only. So all the know it alls calm yourself this is what i did and it worked.

I've had a major ich outbreak twice now. I put on a large UV with very low flow to kill anything passing through it. Lowering the flow is critical to kill ICH. Normal flow wont do it. I have a 57watt UV and i'm running it at 1200GPH. They recommend 2500-3000 for normal usage. I also run Ozone but I'm not sure if that has any effect on the ich at all i Just want to add that since i am running it.
I start feeding with Dr. Bassleer Matrine Bio Food and dosing with powdered Ginger. About a teaspoon or so a day.
This has completely cleared up the ich in both cases within a week. I have never lost a single fish to Ich. I'm a believer in preventing it is pointless learn to manage it and your fine. I've never put a fish in copper and i never will to me its the equivalent of Chemo in a human.
Like I said this is just what works for me and I tell people simply because quarantine tanks and emptying your tank for 3-6 months just aren't realistic for most people. I have close to 1400G of saltwater throughout my house and I've even had a quarantine tank setup but dealing with it and having a life outside this hobby just doesn't work.

 

[Subsea]

So what i'm about to say goes against pretty much everything everyone tells you to do but this is my experience and mine only. So all the know it alls calm yourself this is what i did and it worked.

I've had a major ich outbreak twice now. I put on a large UV with very low flow to kill anything passing through it. Lowering the flow is critical to kill ICH. Normal flow wont do it. I have a 57watt UV and i'm running it at 1200GPH. They recommend 2500-3000 for normal usage. I also run Ozone but I'm not sure if that has any effect on the ich at all i Just want to add that since i am running it.
I start feeding with Dr. Bassleer Matrine Bio Food and dosing with powdered Ginger. About a teaspoon or so a day.
This has completely cleared up the ich in both cases within a week. I have never lost a single fish to Ich. I'm a believer in preventing it is pointless learn to manage it and your fine. I've never put a fish in copper and i never will to me its the equivalent of Chemo in a human.
Like I said this is just what works for me and I tell people simply because quarantine tanks and emptying your tank for 3-6 months just aren't realistic for most people. I have close to 1400G of saltwater throughout my house and I've even had a quarantine tank setup but dealing with it and having a life outside this hobby just doesn't work.

I use ginger, garlic and tumeric for my own immune & antiinflamitory supplemeents.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Good stuff.
If I do this it will be a DIY. I googled peroxide injection and cost started at $1000.

I think the Stenner pump costs $350. The normal mixing chamber is another $350, so I used my carbon filter as the mixer. If you do pull the trigger on this, I can get you the pump model number.

Edit: I think it is the pump that goes from 0.8 gpd and up. Amazon has them for $430, and they carry the one way valve for $16

 

[Subsea]

I think the Stenner pump costs $350. The normal mixing chamber is another $350, so I used my carbon filter as the mixer. If you do pull the trigger on this, I can get you the pump model number.

Edit: I think it is the pump that goes from 0.8 gpd and up. Amazon has them for $430, and they carry the one way valve for $16

I am presently using UV sterilizer on ground water. I am thinking that peroxide injection should happen after UV.. Any thoughts?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I am presently using UV sterilizer on ground water. I am thinking that peroxide injection should happen after UV.. Any thoughts?

Yes, for sure it needs to come after the UV, but it does need some sort of mixing system. Isn’t UV the last point in your water treatment system? You could buy a peroxide reactor but they are expensive.

 

[Subsea]

Yes, for sure it needs to come after the UV, but it does need some sort of mixing system. Isn’t UV the last point in your water treatment system? You could buy a peroxide reactor but they are expensive.

UV is my last treatment on raw water. For hot water, I use polymers to prevent calcium & magnesium from precipitating out in hot water lines while removing existing scale from pipes & faucets. Raw water comes from 950’ within the Middle Trinity which is an ancient inland sea with a TDS AT 1050PPM and full of silicates: no Fe, N or P and some Black Cyanobacteria which gives the pool maintenance people nightmares.

I run 7 stage filtration for kitchen drinking & cooking with no sulfur smell. Sulfur smell is intermittent in hot water. However, I know it is growing in my hot water heater which I will soon take off line and clean with 45% vinegar and then 12% peroxide. I just did clean up the chiller on cold plunge with 45% vinegar.

Yes, black Cyanobacteria is growing in my hot water heater.
As a subsea engineer in deep water drilling, in the Gulf of Mexico, we often encountered volcanic vents on bottom and when identified as eco sensitive, required 24 hour monitoring by Oceaneering personal using ROV. When I looked at video feed, it was very surreal with towers a bubbling and weird stuff growing around vents and beware fish that came too close.

 

[Subsea]

So, I cleaned glass during lights out and missed some spots now that lights are on. CBB is forging and exploring caves. I can clearly see a large raised white spot on tail fin. CBB does not pose for pictures and I will try later on in light cycle.

PS: In the pictures, I see several spots on tail. However, i treason, I only see one spot and it is visible from both sides and it is raised above fish slime.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So, I cleaned glass during lights out and missed some spots now that lights are on. CBB is forging and exploring caves. I can clearly see a large raised white spot on tail fin. CBB does not pose for pictures and I will try later on in light cycle.

PS: In the pictures, I see several spots on tail. However, i treason, I only see one spot and it is visible from both sides and it is raised above fish slime.

Those spots are clearly Lymphocystis. Now, the fish *could* also have ich, but the spots on the caudal fin are classic Lymphocystis. Here is an article I wrote on that issue:

Lymphocystis (cauliflower disease)

This is a short article on the viral disease, Lymphocystis

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Subsea]

Thank you for the article. And your diagnosis

In 55 years of reefing, I have never seen Cauliflowers in my reef tanks and have only seen ich 3 times. So, I am a novice at this.

After reading the article, I concur that I will do nothing now that fish is eating and exploring his environment.

 

[Subsea]

In a somewhat convoluted parallel scenario, I transitioned four Black Mollies to full salt over a 5 day period. During the transition, there were two seperate spawns. Adults were transferred and within 24 hours, I noted white spots on two of the mollies. I think in this case I will do nothing but good husbandry. Coincidently, this tank is on 60 day isolation/observation as the tank was treated for Red Planaria eradication using potassium chloride.