How Do You Maintain Nitrates Without Triggering Algae Growth?

[PharmrJohn]

There are a few things that can be done. What I'm gonna try are a good CUC, utilitarian fish, PO4 in the 0.04 to 0.1 range, NO3 from 10 to 20, a more limited time with lights on, good husbandry and praying to any reef god that'll listen. And of course, any other ideas I can pick up along the way.

 

[Subsea]

I’ve seen that paper before and reread it just now. It does not suggest that doc encourages algae growth ( nor does it).

What it does claim is summarized best by this section from it:

High values of DOC cause them to become outcompeted by harmful bacteria, which then causes coral to die from disease. As more corals die, there’s more room for algae to colonize, reinforcing the cycle.

while I do not agree with all of the assertions in the paper, even if one does, there is no place where it suggests that doc directly boosts algae growth. It merely says doc is bad for corals and causes disease that kill them, with algae taking over.

In a reef tank with algae issues, it’s almost never because corals have died and algae took its place. The algae is growing all over, on rock, glass, plastic, and even sand. It’s not that a coral used to be there that died of a bacterial pathogen. There was never anything else there and algae took the location and thrived.

Interesting that we both reread the article and focused on differrent areas. I gathered that cryptic sponges were a solution to a complex problem: DOC.

 

[Doctorgori]

High nitrates, High phosphates, red light, white light …
NONE of that causes algae anymore than fertilizer and sunlight causes weeds….(they all contribute but that misses the point)

I have three tanks all with phosphates over .1and Nitrates well over 25ppm
Ive also (in the past) have lit my tanks as white as I want ..

Besides CUC, IME the best “prevention” for algae growing on something is for something else to be there first: corals, coraline, sponges, et et

 

[ChrisRD]

Don't over complicate it. As others have said, you need nutrients to grow coral. Once you have stable input / export just add cleanup critters until they can keep pace with the algae growth.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Interesting that we both reread the article and focused on differrent areas. I gathered that cryptic sponges were a solution to a complex problem: DOC.

That is also a good conclusion, if there are enough. I just don’t agree that such removal to any extent will have any impact on algae.

 

[CHSUB]

Besides CUC, IME the best “prevention” for algae growing on something is for something else to be there first: corals, coraline, sponges, et et

imo, the right and easiest answer, when it comes to algae….it’s all about real estate!

 

[VintageReefer]

I feel nitrates and phosphates are only a slice of the pie, and get too much focus.

I have zero herbivorous fish. I have a small cleanup crew for a 75g tank. And I don’t believe they contribute much at all.

My display has no algae issues. But I do have one rock in a rear corner that has hair algae. It never gets better or worse. Just seems to want to grow a certain amount then stops. I’ve plucked and it grows back. I’ve plucked and put snails and hermits directly on the rock. They just leave. It comes back. Then it stays a certain way.

I’ve run my tank at .04 phosphates and 5 nitrates for 1.5 years. I hit .98 phosphate in a spike for a few days. I currently run the tank at .4 phosphate and 10-20 nitrates. Regardless of any of these numbers the outcome is the same. Zero display algae except for the one rock

do you see tons of critters cleaning my sand and glass? I have 10-15 snails tops, probably 5 hermits. In a 75 gallon tank

Not saying that they don’t work for most people, but there is more at play here because I run higher nutrients, have a tiny clean up crew, and my tank does very well. Film algae on glass is all I regularly get

If it matters, I do have a large yellow sponge colony in the display (pic 3) and I do have a cryptic zone in my sump with a few species of sponge as well

 

[Subsea]

I feel nitrates and phosphates are only a slice of the pie, and get too much focus.

I have zero herbivorous fish. I have a small cleanup crew for a 75g tank. And I don’t believe they contribute much at all.

My display has no algae issues. But I do have one rock in a rear corner that has hair algae. It never gets better or worse. Just seems to want to grow a certain amount then stops. I’ve plucked and it grows back. I’ve plucked and put snails and hermits directly on the rock. They just leave. It comes back. Then it stays a certain way.

I’ve run my tank at .04 phosphates and 5 nitrates for 1.5 years. I hit .98 phosphate in a spike for a few days. I currently run the tank at .4 phosphate and 10-20 nitrates. Regardless of any of these numbers the outcome is the same. Zero display algae except for the one rock

do you see tons of critters cleaning my sand and glass? I have 10-15 snails tops, probably 5 hermits. In a 75 gallon tank

Not saying that they don’t work for most people, but there is more at play here because I run higher nutrients, have a tiny clean up crew, and my tank does very well. Film algae on glass is all I regularly get

If it matters, I do have a large yellow sponge colony in the display (pic 3) and I do have a cryptic zone in my sump with a few species of sponge as well

Between you & Richard Ross, you two have defied the popular topic that high inorganic N & P are bad in a reef tank.

 

[CHSUB]

Between you & Richard Ross, you two have defied the popular topic that high inorganic N & P are bad in a reef tank.

No, it’s old new! “..elevated nitrate levels as high as 10 ppm nitrate-nitrogen (approximately = 40 ppm nitrate ion) may encourage more rapid growth of both soft and stony corals (D. Stuber, pers. comm.). From The Reef Aquarium, Sprung 1994. Not much has changed since the mid 1990s most is regurgitated and repackaged.

 

[VintageReefer]

Between you & Richard Ross, you two have defied the popular topic that high inorganic N & P are bad in a reef tank.

You know me. Always causing trouble lol

 

[VintageReefer]

No, it’s old new! “..elevated nitrate levels as high as 10 ppm nitrate-nitrogen (approximately = 40 ppm nitrate ion) may encourage more rapid growth of both soft and stony corals (D. Stuber, pers. comm.). From The Reef Aquarium, Sprung 1994. Not much has changed since the mid 1990s most is regurgitated and repackaged.

I was actually reading old posts from 10 years ago on a scrubber forum about how scrubbers work, and theories on algae growth and a lot of the same stuff from today, a lot of interesting and technical theories, and in the end, no real conclusion lol.

We know how to grow it, but how to stop growing it, without killing coral..and how growing in one place affects another…both things are possible but lack a clear universal explanation. There’s so many variables at play

 

[Subsea]

No, it’s old new! “..elevated nitrate levels as high as 10 ppm nitrate-nitrogen (approximately = 40 ppm nitrate ion) may encourage more rapid growth of both soft and stony corals (D. Stuber, pers. comm.). From The Reef Aquarium, Sprung 1994. Not much has changed since the mid 1990s most is regurgitated and repackaged.

Physics, biology, chemistry & biochemistry are Laws of Nature and they do not change. However, our understanding of processes have progressed. I have said it before, “the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know”.

I don’t recall any conversations about the
Coral Holibiont or Intelligent Design in the 1990’s.

PS: Bacteria in biofilm of coral that crosstalk with other bacteria then using gene expression to modify chemical parameters is a novel idea to me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Nitrate is particularly uncertain in its effects since it is never known how much N, if any, corals or algae are getting from nitrate in a given tank, regardless of level.

 

[Subsea]

Nitrate is particularly uncertain in its effects since it is never known how much N, if any, corals or algae are getting from nitrate in a given tank, regardless of level.

Would you go into more detail with your reasons?

I have read peer reviewed papers that indicate that certain Cynobacteria in coral biomass perform nitrogen fixation to supply coral with nitrogen when bulk water is nitrogen limited. Does that agree with what you just said.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Would you go into more detail with your reasons?

I have read peer reviewed papers that indicate that certain Cynobacteria in coral biomass perform nitrogen fixation to supply coral with nitrogen when bulk water is nitrogen limited. Does that agree with what you just said.

In no aquarium can we know how much N any organism is getting from nitrate vs things we do not measure such as ammonia or urea, or organics in the case of corals . Since many organisms prefer ammonia to nitrate (due to it being usable with less energy expenditure), they will often take what they can get from ammonia, and maybe only use nitrate if they need even more.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

As to nitrogen fixing, cyano can certainly do that, but I have no idea how much that happens in a reef tank.

 

[rishma]

Between you & Richard Ross, you two have defied the popular topic that high inorganic N & P are bad in a reef tank.

I don’t dispute that there are great tanks with high N&P. I have experienced it myself, thought I might stop short of saying I have had great tanks, but certainly some good ones.

But keeping nitrate and phosphate in a low range is still generally good advice. I think it’s more important in the early years of a tank for various reasons. In my current 3 year old tank I definitely see more algae growth, boarding on problematic, when I let my phosphate get too far above my target. Nitrate is never really a problem but it doesn’t get above 10ppm. I often dose an N source to keep it up.

My point is I think those great tanks with high nitrate and phosphate are more the exception than the rule. I don’t think it would be good for newer reefers to see those results and think they’ll achieve the same by letting their inorganic nutrients get really high. I think the higher liklihood of success comes from controlling these nutrients in a lower range. The actual target range to recommend is fun to debate.

 

[Subsea]

I don’t dispute that there are great tanks with high N&P. I have experienced it myself, thought I might stop short of saying I have had great tanks, but certainly some good ones.

But keeping nitrate and phosphate in a low range is still generally good advice. I think it’s more important in the early years of a tank for various reasons. In my current 3 year old tank I definitely see more algae growth, boarding on problematic, when I let my phosphate get too far above my target. Nitrate is never really a problem but it doesn’t get above 10ppm. I often dose an N source to keep it up.

My point is I think those great tanks with high nitrate and phosphate are more the exception than the rule. I don’t think it would be good for newer reefers to see those results and think they’ll achieve the same by letting their inorganic nutrients get really high. I think the higher liklihood of success comes from controlling these nutrients in a lower range. The actual target range to recommend is fun to debate.

I did not think this was a newbie forum. In my experiences, DOC is much more of an issue, long term, than inorganic nutrients.

For certain, mature tanks respond differently than young tanks. At 25 years mature, I add ammonia to keep up with nitrogen demand.

 

[anthonymckay]

Between you & Richard Ross, you two have defied the popular topic that high inorganic N & P are bad in a reef tank.

There are SO many examples here on this message board of beautiful tanks with high N&P. The old "High N&P are bad" is a pretty outdated concept that seems to just perpetuate in this hobby.

 

[CHSUB]

I don’t dispute that there are great tanks with high N&P. I have experienced it myself, thought I might stop short of saying I have had great tanks, but certainly some good ones.

But keeping nitrate and phosphate in a low range is still generally good advice. I think it’s more important in the early years of a tank for various reasons. In my current 3 year old tank I definitely see more algae growth, boarding on problematic, when I let my phosphate get too far above my target. Nitrate is never really a problem but it doesn’t get above 10ppm. I often dose an N source to keep it up.

My point is I think those great tanks with high nitrate and phosphate are more the exception than the rule. I don’t think it would be good for newer reefers to see those results and think they’ll achieve the same by letting their inorganic nutrients get really high. I think the higher liklihood of success comes from controlling these nutrients in a lower range. The actual target range to recommend is fun to debate.

I agree it’s the exception…back when I was involved in reef clubs in Miami there was always 1 or 2 guys with very nice mature reef tanks with run away inorganics, but everyone realized it was the exception. Now people think it’s the “preferred” and the only way. Similar when people buy fruit in the store and say it’s delicious because they have never had fruit from a garden grown naturally.