How does Hydrogen Peroxide work in Dino Treatment

[malfist]

So I've been battling dinos for a long time now and have tried lots of things. One thing that I've not tried that I see people use is hydrogen peroxide.

The dosing I'm talking about is 1ml per 1 gallon of tank water with a 3% H2O2 solution.

I'm no chemist, (mostly just a curious computer science nerd), but I'm not sure how this could actually do anything to dinos.

H2O2 is an indiscriminate oxidizer right? It's going to oxidize any organic matter it encounters, dinos are organics, but so are lots and lots and lots of other things in your aquarium.

Since it's indiscriminate, it seems to me a dose that's safe for your coral is also going to be safe for your dinos. After all, dinos form cysts and mucus mats that would protect them right?

Anybody what to help me understand how H2O2 could possibly target dinos, or how an indescriminate killer might be strong enough to kill dinos but not strong enough to harm coral or your vulnerable bacteria populations?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Peroxide encourages algae and bacteria growth which will outcompete dinos. It is also encourages pod growth and other micro fauna in your system.

 

[xabo]

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[fishgutz]

Peroxide encourages algae and bacteria growth which will outcompete dinos. It is also encourages pod growth and other micro fauna in your system.

how does peroxide encourage algae and bacteria growth?

 

[malfist]

Peroxide encourages algae and bacteria growth which will outcompete dinos. It is also encourages pod growth and other micro fauna in your system.

Can you expand on that? How does H2O2 encourage algae and bacteria growth?

H2O2 is often used in freshwater to control algae by oxidizing waste, and H2O2, being an oxidizer, kills bacteria (it's why it's in first aide kits).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know how often (or even if) peroxide is a direct cause of defeating dinos, but the addition of hydrogen peroxide to seawater changes a lot of things, including potentially the speciation and bioavailability of trace elements such as copper and iron.

Since one way of defeating dinos seems to be to spur competition for something (which might include trace elements), there may be a trace element aspect of the dinos/perxide relationship.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I do not know how often (or even if) peroxide is a direct cause of defeating dinos, but the addition of hydrogen peroxide to seawater changes a lot of things, including potentially the speciation and bioavailability of trace elements such as copper and iron.

Since one way of defeating dinos seems to be to spur competition for something (which might include trace elements), there may be a trace element aspect of the dinos/perxide relationship.

Thank you Randy!! I’m at work and not a whole lot of time to elaborate on this until evening
We get our jet back on Friday from hot section maintenance and will be airborne often at the beginning of each week the next 2-3 months

 

[malfist]

I do not know how often (or even if) peroxide is a direct cause of defeating dinos, but the addition of hydrogen peroxide to seawater changes a lot of things, including potentially the speciation and bioavailability of trace elements such as copper and iron.

Since one way of defeating dinos seems to be to spur competition for something (which might include trace elements), there may be a trace element aspect of the dinos/perxide relationship.

Does it make the copper and iron more or less bioavaliable?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does it make the copper and iron more or less bioavaliable?

It converts iron from Fe++ to Fe+++, which is much less soluble, at least when not chelated to organics. Which form is more bioavailable at the same concentration is open to debate by scientists .

Disassembling Iron Availability to Phytoplankton

The bioavailability of iron to microorganisms and its underlying mechanisms have far reaching repercussions to many natural systems and diverse fields of research, including ocean biogeochemistry, carbon cycling and climate, harmful algal blooms, soil ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Due to the greater solubility of Fe(II) compared to Fe(III), the occurrence of reductive processes and/or measurable Fe(II) concentrations is often equated with increased bioavailability."


It converts Cu++ to Cu+. What is more bioavailable may depend on the organism:

Chemical Speciation of Copper in a Salt Marsh Estuary and Bioavailability to Thaumarchaeota

The concentrations of dissolved copper (Cud), copper-binding ligands, thiourea-type thiols, and humic substances (HSCu) were measured in estuarine waters adjacent to Sapelo Island, Georgia, USA, on a monthly basis from April to December 2014. Here we present the seasonal cycle of copper...

www.frontiersin.org

"Cu uptake has been shown to be controlled by the oxidation state of the metal and by the metal:ligand ratio, rather than by the concentration of inorganic species of Cu in solution (Semeniuk et al., 2009). The speciation of Cu will affect its availability to microorganisms depending on whether uptake is as Cu(I) or Cu(II), as the uptake may involve a change in oxidation state with associated reaction rates. It is unclear whether Thaumarchaeota are acquiring the thiol-bound copper [as Cu(I)], or the humic-bound copper [as Cu(II)]."

 

[malfist]

Thanks for those details Randy!

Another question if you have the time. If those become more bioavaliable (or become less soluble and precipitate out), do they get taken up and locked away in biomass? If so, is there a purpose to repeated dosing if the only input into the system is food, alk, calc and magnesium? Maybe the food would contain some, or the supplements have impurities.

The recommended dosing schedule is in the morning and at night after lights out. Do you think the timing actually matters?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for those details Randy!

Another question if you have the time. If those become more bioavaliable (or become less soluble and precipitate out), do they get taken up and locked away in biomass? If so, is there a purpose to repeated dosing if the only input into the system is food, alk, calc and magnesium? Maybe the food would contain some, or the supplements have impurities.

The recommended dosing schedule is in the morning and at night after lights out. Do you think the timing actually matters?

To opine on that is stretching the speculation pretty far....

I don't think I can reasonably make any predictions on repeat dosing or time of day dosing.

Foods do have lots of trace elements. It may be the biggest source in most reef tanks.

 

[malfist]

Makes sense. Thank you Randy!

 

[chipchipbro]

Did you try DinoX from Fauna Marin?
I am not sure as it seems to have kinda like the same effect like H2O2 I guess.

But H2O2 did melt 2 of my 4 Zoas in the tank.

 

[malfist]

Did you try DinoX from Fauna Marin?
I am not sure as it seems to have kinda like the same effect like H2O2 I guess.

But H2O2 did melt 2 of my 4 Zoas in the tank.

I've tried lots of things. DinoX was very successful at knocking my dinos back for about two weeks the first time I used it, but ineffective in subsequent outbreaks.

But I was mostly trying to understand the mechanism of action for using H2O2 in a dino treatment.

 

[taricha]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
I speculated on this elsewhere a while back but since you're on this topic, perhaps you could tell me if I've confused myself or not.

The context is a few people finding that pushing the temp up to 83 caused their dinos to fade Reefbuilders article "Is This the Dinoflagellate Treatment We’ve all been Hoping for?". More people tried and it was very hit and miss. Could be compared to pH elevation or H2O2 addition.

The metals / Iron availability angle. pH elevation changes the form and availability of metals that are needed such as Fe. A quick poke around makes it look like elevating temperature might have an effect in the same direction as pH increase maybe?

source Oxidation kinetics of Fe in seawater - Millero[pdf]
So perhaps we are dealing with a bloom that has already plateaued due to scarce Fe etc, and then Temp is getting pushed up, that decreases(?) the Fe availability further.

Leaving the dino speculation part out of it, is it correct that elevating pH, adding H2O2, and elevating temp 78->83 might all noticeably shift Fe to the oxidized form, and perhaps decrease its bioavailability?

 

[johnreef]

how does peroxide encourage algae and bacteria growth?

yes, dosing peroxide for dinos are sooo confused! some one said that peroxide will oxidize any organizm includes dino,that means will kills pods, good bacteria and algaes ect... others said that peroxide dose will inspired algae and bacteria growing yo out compete the dino... don't know what is right and what is wrong lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
I speculated on this elsewhere a while back but since you're on this topic, perhaps you could tell me if I've confused myself or not.

The context is a few people finding that pushing the temp up to 83 caused their dinos to fade Reefbuilders article "Is This the Dinoflagellate Treatment We’ve all been Hoping for?". More people tried and it was very hit and miss. Could be compared to pH elevation or H2O2 addition.



Leaving the dino speculation part out of it, is it correct that elevating pH, adding H2O2, and elevating temp 78->83 might all noticeably shift Fe to the oxidized form, and perhaps decrease its bioavailability?

I missed this when first posted, so I'll comment now.

Raising pH will make ferric iron less soluble. Is that important? i do not know.

Adding peroxide likely does drive Fe++ to Fe+++.

Does a pH change alter the Fe++ / Fe+++ balance? It might, but I'm not 100% sure what controls the equilibrium ratio even if the oxidation is faster at higher pH as your link shows.

I'm not sure on the temp effect.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

yes, dosing peroxide for dinos are sooo confused! some one said that peroxide will oxidize any organizm includes dino,that means will kills pods, good bacteria and algaes ect... others said that peroxide dose will inspired algae and bacteria growing yo out compete the dino... don't know what is right and what is wrong lol

Peroxide will oxidize any organism surface tissue, but that doesn't mean it kills it at any given concentration.

 

[BanjoBandito]

Did you try DinoX from Fauna Marin?
I am not sure as it seems to have kinda like the same effect like H2O2 I guess.

But H2O2 did melt 2 of my 4 Zoas in the tank.

I’ve dipped Zoas in 3% store bought H2O2 for years….? What happened?

 

[sixty_reefer]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
I speculated on this elsewhere a while back but since you're on this topic, perhaps you could tell me if I've confused myself or not.

The context is a few people finding that pushing the temp up to 83 caused their dinos to fade Reefbuilders article "Is This the Dinoflagellate Treatment We’ve all been Hoping for?". More people tried and it was very hit and miss. Could be compared to pH elevation or H2O2 addition.



Leaving the dino speculation part out of it, is it correct that elevating pH, adding H2O2, and elevating temp 78->83 might all noticeably shift Fe to the oxidized form, and perhaps decrease its bioavailability?

Could be due to the dinos type they targeting, I’ve come to realise that you can’t use the same method to rid of non photosynthetic dinoflagellates as you would for photosynthetic dinoflagellates. This could explain why is hit and miss. Imo photosynthetic dinoflagellates are much harder to eradicate.