How does Prime detoxify ammonia and nitrite?

[Azedenkae]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley

Out of curiosity, do you know how exactly does Prime 'detoxify' ammonia and nitrite? There are no answers from Google, and this has just been something I have been so curious about.

 

[Losirk]

I believe it bonds to the ammonia and nitrate on a molecular level and changes their structures, don't quote me though

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I would also be interested to know if bacteria can process this bonded ammonia.

 

[Tony Thompson]

I would also be interested to know if bacteria can process this bonded ammonia.

As far a s I am aware ammonia detox products effect only the free ammonia NH3 (Non ionised, neutral charge). Nitrifying archaea utilise the NH4+ . The idea being that once the nitrifying bacteria have colonised to a sufficient level the TAN (total ammonia nitrogen NH3 NH4+) will be low enough that any level of free ammonia calculated with reference to the Ph will be negligible.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley

Out of curiosity, do you know how exactly does Prime 'detoxify' ammonia and nitrite? There are no answers from Google, and this has just been something I have been so curious about.

See post #35

Dosing SeaChem Prime

I do not believe that Prime does anything useful about nitrate. I know Seachem mentions it, but there's no basis to believe it. The information I just read refers to detoxifying ammonia and nitrite. I understand the chemical possibilities around the first claim but not the second.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Azedenkae]

See post #35

Dosing SeaChem Prime

I do not believe that Prime does anything useful about nitrate. I know Seachem mentions it, but there's no basis to believe it. The information I just read refers to detoxifying ammonia and nitrite. I understand the chemical possibilities around the first claim but not the second.

www.reef2reef.com

That does not answer my question. XD I mean with nitrite, yes, but not ammonia.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley

Out of curiosity, do you know how exactly does Prime 'detoxify' ammonia and nitrite? There are no answers from Google, and this has just been something I have been so curious about.

The information is at the bottom of the article under “Uses”. It does not mention nitrate.

Rongalite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Dan_P]

That does not answer my question. XD I mean with nitrite, yes, but not ammonia.

The nitrite and nitrate is something Seachem more than likely made up.

 

[Dan_P]

That does not answer my question. XD I mean with nitrite, yes, but not ammonia.

Check out post 25

Dosing SeaChem Prime

I do not believe that Prime does anything useful about nitrate. I know Seachem mentions it, but there's no basis to believe it. The information I just read refers to detoxifying ammonia and nitrite. I understand the chemical possibilities around the first claim but not the second.

www.reef2reef.com

Seachem talks about detoxification. They fail to mention that a) nitrate is not toxic, b) nitrite is not toxic in seawater and most damning, c) they did not present evidence that nitrite or nitrate concentrations changed at all.

 

[Azedenkae]

Check out post 25

Dosing SeaChem Prime

I do not believe that Prime does anything useful about nitrate. I know Seachem mentions it, but there's no basis to believe it. The information I just read refers to detoxifying ammonia and nitrite. I understand the chemical possibilities around the first claim but not the second.

www.reef2reef.com

Seachem talks about detoxification. They fail to mention that a) nitrate is not toxic, b) nitrite is not toxic in seawater and most damning, c) they did not present evidence that nitrite or nitrate concentrations changed at all.

Gotcha, thanks. I was somehow looking at the wrong post.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Treatments for Elevated Ammonia: Hydrosulfite and Bisulfite
A second type of compound used in commercial products (such as Seachem Prime) that claim to bind ammonia in marine aquaria is said to contain hydrosulfite (could be either HSO2- or - O2S-SO2-) and bisulfite (HSO3-). These compounds are well known dechlorinating agents, reducing Cl2 to chloride (Cl-), which process is also claimed to occur in these products. It is not apparent to me whether these ingredients actually react with ammonia in some fashion, or whether unstated ingredients in these products perform that function. Seachem chooses to keep the ingredients of their product secret, so aquarists cannot determine for themselves what is taking place, and how suitable it might be. Nevertheless, many aquarists seem to have successfully used products such as these to reduce ammonia's toxicity.

Note: products such as Seachem Prime hamper the ability to test for ammonia when using certain types of test kits (see above). Presumably, the product formed is still reactive with the Nessler reagents, even though it is not ammonia.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Treatments for Elevated Ammonia: Hydrosulfite and Bisulfite
A second type of compound used in commercial products (such as Seachem Prime) that claim to bind ammonia in marine aquaria is said to contain hydrosulfite (could be either HSO2- or - O2S-SO2-) and bisulfite (HSO3-). These compounds are well known dechlorinating agents, reducing Cl2 to chloride (Cl-), which process is also claimed to occur in these products. It is not apparent to me whether these ingredients actually react with ammonia in some fashion, or whether unstated ingredients in these products perform that function. Seachem chooses to keep the ingredients of their product secret, so aquarists cannot determine for themselves what is taking place, and how suitable it might be. Nevertheless, many aquarists seem to have successfully used products such as these to reduce ammonia's toxicity.

Note: products such as Seachem Prime hamper the ability to test for ammonia when using certain types of test kits (see above). Presumably, the product formed is still reactive with the Nessler reagents, even though it is not ammonia.

Hi Randy hope you are well.

SODIUM FORMALDEHYDE BISULPHITE ?

The products sometimes used in shipping animals, is suggested by the manufacturer to dechlorinate, remove chloramine and control ammonia to reduce toxicity in the shipping bags.

This is the reaction supplied by one of the manufacturers. NH3 + HOCH2SO3Na = H2NCH2SO3Na + H2O
(an aminomethanesulfonate salt) stable at pH below 9 .

The manufacturers process by the product for the other two parts Chlorine and Chloramine are stated below.

OCl- + HOCH2SO3Na = H2NCH2SO4Na + Cl-

NH2Cl + HOCH2SO3Na = H2NCH2SO3Na + H+ + OCl-

Your expertise and comments would be very much appreciated.

Stay safe, best wishes from across the pond, Tony.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Hi Randy hope you are well.

SODIUM FORMALDEHYDE BISULPHITE ?

The products sometimes used in shipping animals, is suggested by the manufacturer to dechlorinate, remove chloramine and control ammonia to reduce toxicity in the shipping bags.

This is the reaction supplied by one of the manufacturers. NH3 + HOCH2SO3Na = H2NCH2SO3Na + H2O
(an aminomethanesulfonate salt) stable at pH below 9 .

The manufacturers process by the product for the other two parts Chlorine and Chloramine are stated below.

OCl- + HOCH2SO3Na = H2NCH2SO4Na + Cl-

NH2Cl + HOCH2SO3Na = H2NCH2SO3Na + H+ + OCl-

Your expertise and comments would be very much appreciated.

Stay safe, best wishes from across the pond, Tony.

After a little more research I found this USA patent.

METHOD AND PRODUCT FOR REMOVAL OF CHLORAMINES, CHLORINE AND AMMONIA FROM AQUACULTURE WATER 75

Inventor: John F. Kuhns, Kansas City, Mo. 73)
Assignee: Aquascience Research Group, Inc., North Kansas City, Mo. (21)
Appl. No.: 738,481 22
Filed: May 28, 1985

OTHER PUBLICATIONS Blasiola, George C., "Chloramines', Pet Age, Jul., 1984, pp. 25-26. Herwig, Nelson, "Toxic Chloramine Induced Intravas 11 Patent Number: 45) Date of Patent: 4,666,610 May 19, 1987 cular Hemolytic Anemia in Fish', Freshwater and Ma rine Aquarium, 5(10), pp. 11-13, 91-92, 1982. Wheaton, Fredrick Warner, Aquacultural Engineering, pp. 608-612, 1977. Allied Chemical Corporation, "Dechlorination', 1977. Helz, George R. and Lynn Kosak-Channing, "Dechlo rination of Wastewater and Cooling Water', Environ. Sci & Tech., 18(2), pp. 48A-55A, 1984. Morrison, Robert T. and Robert N. Boyd, Organic Chemistry, 2nd edition, pp. 639-641, 1966. Walker, J. Frederic, Formaldehyde, 3rd edition, pp, 219, 251-253, 486-488, 621-623, 638, 1975. Primary Examiner-Peter Hruskoci Attorney, Agent, or Firm-Kokjer, Kircher, Bradley, Wharton, Bowman & Johnson 57

ABSTRACT A process for neutralizing chloramines, chlorine and ammonia in marine and fresh waters by adding an alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite in a dry or solution form in which the alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is selected from the group consisting of sodium formaldehydebi sulfite and potassium formaldehydebisulfite. Preferably, the alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is sodium formal dehydebisulfite added in the amount at least equal to the greater of the quantity required to react on a one to one molecular basis with 4 times the stoichiometric amount of ammonia, 12 times the stoichiometric amount of monochloramine, 10 times the stoichiometric amount of dichloramine or 12 times the stoichiometric amount of chlorine in the form of hypochlorites present in the water to be treated.

Full test here https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/9d/8d/7d/82bd73cbbe0819/US4666610.pdf

 

[Malcontent]

It's possible to detoxify ammonia (see attached) so I'm at least open to the possibility that Prime detoxifies ammonia (though I don't think it's that likely).

I'm pretty sure their nitrite and nitrate claims are false though.

A lot of freshwater people have no idea how toxic nitrite/nitrate are/aren't. So they detect 0.5 ppm nitrite or 80 ppm nitrate, add Prime, and their fish survive. Then they write to Seachem and they put it on their bottles. Though it's likely it was a response to Kordon's earlier claims that AmQuel Plus bound or reduced the levels of nitrite/nitrate (these were disproven by ion chromatography).

The problem with these anecdotes is that these people have no control group. Their fish likely would have survived even without Prime.

Is Seachem the most dishonest company in the business? I don't know but they're a leading contender.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is the reaction supplied by one of the manufacturers. NH3 + HOCH2SO3Na = H2NCH2SO3Na + H2O
(an aminomethanesulfonate salt) stable at pH below 9 .

The manufacturers process by the product for the other two parts Chlorine and Chloramine are stated below.

OCl- + HOCH2SO3Na = H2NCH2SO4Na + Cl-

Yes, I discuss that reaction in the ammonia article above. As far as I know, that's not an ingredient in Prime, but it is in many other Reef products, such as Amquel and CHlor-AmX.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#17

 

[Tony Thompson]

Yes, I discuss that reaction in the ammonia article above. As far as I know, that's not an ingredient in Prime, but it is in many other Reef products, such as Amquel and CHlor-AmX.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#17

Thanks Randy, Over the years I thoroughly enjoyed reading the Reefkepping Magazine and Advanced Aquarist articles. I still regularly refer back to them for information. In my opinion a remarkable collection of work by many of the hobbies masters.

I believe a query was made to MASNA's Kevin Erikson, by Richard Ross, suggesting an archive of qualified works within the topic of reef keeping, for people to use as reference. In my opinion both of the publications I mentioned above would greatly support the current collection of MACNA presentations on the MASNA Archive.

Thanks again for your generosity, in sharing your valuable knowledge with the reef keeping community. I often find it difficult to have the confidence to trust my amateur research methods. Therefore it is highly valuable to have qualified people like yourself to validate or invalidate any conclusions I may have arrived at.

Thanks, Tony Thompson, Sustainable Marine Aquatics.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Yes, I discuss that reaction in the ammonia article above. As far as I know, that's not an ingredient in Prime, but it is in many other Reef products, such as Amquel and CHlor-AmX.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#17

Amquel (manufactured by Kordon)
along with the other product mentioned in your article
ClorAm X (manufacturerd by AquaScience Research Group)
state that both products contain HOCH2SO3Na. Neither of these products are stated by the relative manufacturers to "detoxify" Nitrite or Nitrate.

Although the more recent product by Kordon, Amaquel + (Amquel plus) also states to "detoxify" other Nitrogen Polyatomic Ions such as NO2- and NO3-.

The manufacturer Kordon states below:"

• Detoxifies ammonia including the ammonia found in chloramine
• Detoxifies chlorine including the chlorine in chloramine
• Detoxifies all of the kinds of toxic nitrogen compounds in the water
• Detoxifies all forms of ammonia/ammonium
• Detoxifies all forms of nitrites/nitrates
• Detoxifies toxic pheromones
• Does not affect the water's pH (acidity/basicity)
• Does not interfere with the beneficial nitrifying bacteria or their food sources
• Made in U.S.A.

Unfortunately unlike their original product 'Amaquel', the manufacturer does not give a statement of what the new product 'Amaquel+ contains. This however is a direct link in statements between both Seachem and Kordon on both of their products.

Interestingly, to me at least

 

[Tony Thompson]

Amquel (manufactured by Kordon)
along with the other product mentioned in your article
ClorAm X (manufacturerd by AquaScience Research Group)
state that both products contain HOCH2SO3Na. Neither of these products are stated by the relative manufacturers to "detoxify" Nitrite or Nitrate.

Although the more recent product by Kordon, Amaquel + (Amquel plus) also states to "detoxify" other Nitrogen Polyatomic Ions such as NO2- and NO3-.

The manufacturer Kordon states below:"

• Detoxifies ammonia including the ammonia found in chloramine
• Detoxifies chlorine including the chlorine in chloramine
• Detoxifies all of the kinds of toxic nitrogen compounds in the water
• Detoxifies all forms of ammonia/ammonium
• Detoxifies all forms of nitrites/nitrates
• Detoxifies toxic pheromones
• Does not affect the water's pH (acidity/basicity)
• Does not interfere with the beneficial nitrifying bacteria or their food sources
• Made in U.S.A.

Unfortunately unlike their original product 'Amaquel', the manufacturer does not give a statement of what the new product 'Amaquel+ contains. This however is a direct link in statements between both Seachem and Kordon on both of their products.

Interestingly, to me at least

MSDS Sheet for Amquel+ attached, Doese not contain sodium thiosulfate, contains no formaldehyde also gives amount of Nitrogen compounds in ppt that will be removed per dosage. https://pentairaes.com/pub/media/docs/AM16P-MSDS-Sheet.pdf

 

[Tony Thompson]

Yes, I discuss that reaction in the ammonia article above. As far as I know, that's not an ingredient in Prime, but it is in many other Reef products, such as Amquel and CHlor-AmX.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#17

Finally found the Patent application, Gives a detailed description of the product I believe to be both in Seachem and Aquael Plus. Patent is applied for by Fritz Industries Inc.

The full document can be found here https://patents.justia.com/patent/7097773

Some extracts from the document below

"It has been discovered that a water soluble reducing agent comprised of a sulfur-containing, organic compound selected from alkali metal and alkaline earth metal formaldehydesulfoxylates can be used in a process to decrease the concentration of pollutants which are dissolved in saline and fresh water. The method of this invention, featuring the use of the mentioned compound, is particularly useful to reduce the concentration of pollutants dissolved in water used to contain and maintain live fish, such as aquariums. For purposes of the method of this invention, a pollutant is defined to specifically include ammonia, chlorine, chloramines, nitrite ions and nitrate ions. Furthermore, the mentioned compound, when employed in accordance with the method of this invention, can reduce the concentration of the pollutants to levels which are not believed to be toxic to fish."


"The compound useful herein reduces the concentration of chloramines, chlorine, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates in saline and fresh waters, and, when used in accordance with the method of this invention, reduces the concentration of these pollutants to levels which, it is believed, are not toxic to fish which are held in the treated water."

"The treating material is a sulfur-containing, reducing agent, and, more specifically, is a water soluble, sulfur-containing, organic compound selected from alkali metal and alkaline earth metal formaldehydesulfoxylates. The sulfur component of the sulfur-containing organic compound exhibits a valence of +4. The treating material is not known to be toxic to fish."

"It must be understood that the treating material does not remove the pollutants from water, the pollutants are, instead, converted to reaction products which are not known to be toxic to fish. The method of this invention is still further comprised of removing the reaction products from the water by appropriate means, such as by biological filtration."

"The reaction mechanisms between the treating material of this invention and nitrite and nitrate anions and the products of the reactions are also not known. However, treating water containing nitrites and nitrates in accordance with the method of this invention produces a decrease in the concentration of nitrites and nitrates dissolved in the water treated."

"A laboratory experiment was performed to determine the ability of sodium formaldehydesulfoxylate to reduce the concentration of chlorine, chloramines, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates dissolved in water."

"
The concentrations of free chlorine, chloramines, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates in the test sample were determined before addition of the treating material and 10 minutes after addition of all the treating material was completed. The results are set forth in Table 1.



TABLE 1 CONCENTRATION, ppm (See Footnote 1) POLLUTANT INITIAL FINAL REDUCTION Free chlorine 0.24 0.00 0.24 Chloramines 2.18 0.01 2.17 Ammonia 3.42 1.46 1.96 Nitrite 2.28 0.17 2.11 Nitrate 27.72 13.64 14.08 Footnote 1 The concentration of pollutants in the test sample was determined by methods described in Hach Water Analysis Handbook, 2nd Edition, 1992. Free and total chlorine, P. 761; Ammonia, Salicylate Method, P. 781; Nitrite, Diazotization Method, P. 784; Nitrate, Cadmium Reduction Method (High Range), P. 783.



Footnote 1

• • The concentration of pollutants in the test sample was determined by methods described in Hach Water Analysis Handbook, 2nd Edition, 1992. Free and total chlorine, P.761; Ammonia, Salicylate Method, P. 781; Nitrite, Diazotization Method, P.784; Nitrate, Cadmium Reduction Method (High Range), P. 783."

@Randy Holmes-Farley any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Tony Thompson, Sustainable Marine Aquatics

 

[Malcontent]

Hmmm...