How long to Observe from Dr. Reefs

[SaracensRugby]

Ok,
So I got a couple batches of fish from Dr. Reefs. Unfortunately most did not make it, but the company stood by their products 100%. AND none of the fish seemed to perish from any disease that I could see, just straight up good one minute, eating away, dead the next morning.
So, I am left with 1 desjardini sailfin in my QT tank, which has 2 black mollies as my canaries (right from freshwater). They have shown no signs of any disease, outside of the one that had a bulbous eye all of a sudden, I think from getting hit by the two mollies who are trying to mate all day. I tossed that fish, nothing in 2 weeks since. There has been no signs of any disease, and it has been 33 days in my QT. I put in Metro a few times, tried Prazi but it made the water really cloudy despite a powerhead and two sponge filters, so water changed it out after a few days.

So, how much longer should/would you wait before adding to the DT? Should I treat with copper for a couple weeks just to be absolutely sure? I have been burned by brook years ago, and the scars (and hit to the wallet), run deep.

Cheers!

 

[vetteguy53081]

14-21 days is sufficient

 

[Baronen]

Hey just wanted to say I had the same problem with my recent online order from a different vendor. Fish were eating, exploring, developing territory and then boom dead within a week

 

[RedoubtReef]

Also happened to me. Got a mandarin and a different wrasse than what I ordered. The wrasse I ordered ships tomorrow. Anyway, the wrasse did great for 3 days, ate, swam around. Then it hid for 3 days and just died. No idea.

When you say they stood by their product, do you mean the fish died the day after you received them and are being replaced?

 

[SaracensRugby]

1st order all died, some out of their replacement range (1 week). Gave credit and replaced with the same $$ value. 2nd order, all fish died except the desjardini, replaced the value paid of dead fish with other items. I went with some shrimp, green nems, and a bunch of macro algae. All doing fine. They were very communicative throughout; probably helped that I sent pics, updates on tank parameters like salinity, ammonia (zero), etc. so I can’t be upset with them, and I guess most importantly I saw no signs of disease on any order. Not that I am remotely an expert, that being said.

 

[Max93]

Got my Copperband from them, doing great super healthy and eating clams on halfshell. Getting some pipefish and a mandarin next

 

[SaracensRugby]

I should also say I put each order in my 45 gallon qt tank, with the mollies.

 

[blecki]

About half my current stock is from DrReef. Running I think about 75% survival rate; been four months or so since I last ordered. Never seen any sign of disease on any fish from him but lost several until I figured out my sailfin was the murderer and isolated him.

Shipping is hard on fish. Sometimes they just don't have a chance.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok,
So I got a couple batches of fish from Dr. Reefs. Unfortunately most did not make it, but the company stood by their products 100%. AND none of the fish seemed to perish from any disease that I could see, just straight up good one minute, eating away, dead the next morning.
So, I am left with 1 desjardini sailfin in my QT tank, which has 2 black mollies as my canaries (right from freshwater). They have shown no signs of any disease, outside of the one that had a bulbous eye all of a sudden, I think from getting hit by the two mollies who are trying to mate all day. I tossed that fish, nothing in 2 weeks since. There has been no signs of any disease, and it has been 33 days in my QT. I put in Metro a few times, tried Prazi but it made the water really cloudy despite a powerhead and two sponge filters, so water changed it out after a few days.

So, how much longer should/would you wait before adding to the DT? Should I treat with copper for a couple weeks just to be absolutely sure? I have been burned by brook years ago, and the scars (and hit to the wallet), run deep.

Cheers!

I agree, 14 to 21 days is a good time frame. Copper won't help with Brooklynella, I wouldn't dose anything unless the tang has specific symptoms of something during that time frame.

Regarding the molly idea - that is one of those things that got over-extrapolated. It is a nice theory, but in practice, it only works in limited instances. Here is a write-up I did on that:

Using black mollies to screen an aquarium for Cryptocaryon
In recent years, a procedure has been promoted that uses marine-adapted freshwater mollies to screen for active Cryptocaryon infections in marine aquariums. The thought is that freshwater black mollies that are naïve to marine ectoparasites, will soon develop infections if that disease is present in a marine aquarium.

With mollies being stark black, white parasites will show up in sharp contrast, making their identification much easier. Mollies have also been suggested to be housed alongside sensitive fish (that cannot be easily medicated) to serve as a “canary in the coal mine” for active disease.

The basic process is to acquire a small group of freshwater black mollies and gradually acclimate them to seawater over a period of up to 5 days. They then are added to the previously fallow aquarium, or added to the quarantine tank, and then observed for at least two weeks to see if they develop ectoparasites. If they do, then a treatment needs to be instituted, or the fallow period extended.

As with many aquarium ideas, over-extrapolation can reduce the effectiveness of the original idea. The process is really only suited to screen for Cryptocaryon. Brooklynella may not even infect mollies. Uronema and Amyloodinium can survive salinities as low as 3 ppt so may already be present in “freshwater” mollies that have been raised in brackish fishponds. Marine and freshwater fish have basically the same internal salinity. Therefore, untreatable internal diseases, such as viruses and Myxozoans could possibly be brought into an aquarium with the mollies.

There is also a risk for introducing euryhaline trematodes into an aquarium along with black mollies. Fish farmers, wholesalers and retail dealers all understand that mollies benefit from being housed in brackish water, and so they usually add salt to systems housing mollies in order to reduce mortality under crowded conditions. Euryhaline trematodes take advantage of this, the trouble is that some of these can survive marine conditions and then hyposalinity is ineffective as a treatment for them.

Finally, black mollies have been used by scientists to propagate Cryptocaryon in laboratories. However, these studies went no further and there is no scientific evidence to indicate this method is actually effective. It is based on a theory, but it needs to be better tested. If properly applied, this process may have some benefit in screening for Cryptocaryon but falls short for all other diseases.


Jay

 

[RedoubtReef]

1st order all died, some out of their replacement range (1 week). Gave credit and replaced with the same $$ value. 2nd order, all fish died except the desjardini, replaced the value paid of dead fish with other items. I went with some shrimp, green nems, and a bunch of macro algae. All doing fine. They were very communicative throughout; probably helped that I sent pics, updates on tank parameters like salinity, ammonia (zero), etc. so I can’t be upset with them, and I guess most importantly I saw no signs of disease on any order. Not that I am remotely an expert, that being said.

Well, good to hear that. I hate to see livestock wasted even if it is credited/replaced. Really hoping my wrasse that will be here Friday does not have the same issue as the last one.

 

[SaracensRugby]

I agree, 14 to 21 days is a good time frame. Copper won't help with Brooklynella, I wouldn't dose anything unless the tang has specific symptoms of something during that time frame.

Regarding the molly idea - that is one of those things that got over-extrapolated. It is a nice theory, but in practice, it only works in limited instances. Here is a write-up I did on that:

Using black mollies to screen an aquarium for Cryptocaryon
In recent years, a procedure has been promoted that uses marine-adapted freshwater mollies to screen for active Cryptocaryon infections in marine aquariums. The thought is that freshwater black mollies that are naïve to marine ectoparasites, will soon develop infections if that disease is present in a marine aquarium.

With mollies being stark black, white parasites will show up in sharp contrast, making their identification much easier. Mollies have also been suggested to be housed alongside sensitive fish (that cannot be easily medicated) to serve as a “canary in the coal mine” for active disease.

The basic process is to acquire a small group of freshwater black mollies and gradually acclimate them to seawater over a period of up to 5 days. They then are added to the previously fallow aquarium, or added to the quarantine tank, and then observed for at least two weeks to see if they develop ectoparasites. If they do, then a treatment needs to be instituted, or the fallow period extended.

As with many aquarium ideas, over-extrapolation can reduce the effectiveness of the original idea. The process is really only suited to screen for Cryptocaryon. Brooklynella may not even infect mollies. Uronema and Amyloodinium can survive salinities as low as 3 ppt so may already be present in “freshwater” mollies that have been raised in brackish fishponds. Marine and freshwater fish have basically the same internal salinity. Therefore, untreatable internal diseases, such as viruses and Myxozoans could possibly be brought into an aquarium with the mollies.

There is also a risk for introducing euryhaline trematodes into an aquarium along with black mollies. Fish farmers, wholesalers and retail dealers all understand that mollies benefit from being housed in brackish water, and so they usually add salt to systems housing mollies in order to reduce mortality under crowded conditions. Euryhaline trematodes take advantage of this, the trouble is that some of these can survive marine conditions and then hyposalinity is ineffective as a treatment for them.

Finally, black mollies have been used by scientists to propagate Cryptocaryon in laboratories. However, these studies went no further and there is no scientific evidence to indicate this method is actually effective. It is based on a theory, but it needs to be better tested. If properly applied, this process may have some benefit in screening for Cryptocaryon but falls short for all other diseases.


Jay

Thanks @Jay Hemdal ! Dumb question: if a fish is exposed to brook or uronema will a fish show symptoms within a set amount of time? Or could they fight it off and never show symptoms (like when some fish of mine survived when I got brook years ago) and as such be considered “clean”?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks @Jay Hemdal ! Dumb question: if a fish is exposed to brook or uronema will a fish show symptoms within a set amount of time? Or could they fight it off and never show symptoms (like when some fish of mine survived when I got brook years ago) and as such be considered “clean”?

No - there isn't a set time for protozoan infections to show up, just some general trends.

Marine ich can fester in a tank at subacute levels for months, some people say even years. Brooklynella is most often seen in newly acquired fish, mostly clowns. If you see it in a tank months later, it is usually because something new brought it into the tank. For example - I was at a coral show recently. A vendor had fish in their coral tray. One of the clowns showed signs of Brook. Buying anything from that system would run the risk of bringing Brook back to my tank. Uronema is also almost always seen in newly acquired fish. It is what is termed a facultative parasite - it normally is a free living protozoan, found in many aquarium naturally. It's just that in some newly collected fish, for no known reason, it becomes an inter cellular parasite.

Jay

 

[Rubymoon286]

Did you get them conditioned or through the quarantine service? I've gotten most of my tank stocked with quarantine fish from Dr. Reef, and only lost fish in one batch at the very start of the heatwave this summer - Lost two fairy wrasses and a male lyretail anthias. I have 12 fish still living from Dr. Reef.

I would also like to add, I lost a goby MONTHS after purchasing it due to a power outage in the 115* weather we had over the summer, and when I reached out to ask if I should also replace the pistol shrimp or if the new goby would bond with my still living one, they sent me a new goby AND shrimp for just the cost of shipping, on top of replacing the fish I'd lost to shipping.

I do a very slow drip acclimation on everything too before transferring to the holding tank to be sure the fish are well adjusted to the higher salinity of the reef.

I only watch for 7 days before adding them to the display because I don't have space for a large qt set up (why I buy quarantined fish in the first place) and haven't had any disease pop up outside of what I believe to be heat related deaths, so 14 days.

 

[SaracensRugby]

I got them quarantined, just extra careful these days. And, the desjardini came in a little thin, so bulking him up before he gets to deal with my purple tang.

 

[RedoubtReef]

I ordered mine as QT'd so I put them straight in. My mandarin also came in a little thin.

 

[Pickle_soup]

1st order all died, some out of their replacement range (1 week). Gave credit and replaced with the same $$ value. 2nd order, all fish died except the desjardini, replaced the value paid of dead fish with other items. I went with some shrimp, green nems, and a bunch of macro algae. All doing fine. They were very communicative throughout; probably helped that I sent pics, updates on tank parameters like salinity, ammonia (zero), etc. so I can’t be upset with them, and I guess most importantly I saw no signs of disease on any order. Not that I am remotely an expert, that being said.

I put two orders through with DR. Reef. I just received one today. I must say, not terribly impressed. 40% casualty rates on the first order, including one DOA, and today I have two DOAs, one just disappeared, probably not to be found, one looks to be 90% on the other side, and one 50% chance of survival here. Yeah, they have great customer service, but I don't want to keep buying from them when at 40% of them are dead within a week.

 

[SaracensRugby]

I put two orders through with DR. Reef. I just received one today. I must say, not terribly impressed. 40% casualty rates on the first order, including one DOA, and today I have two DOAs, one just disappeared, probably not to be found, one looks to be 90% on the other side, and one 50% chance of survival here. Yeah, they have great customer service, but I don't want to keep buying from them when at 40% of them are dead within a week.

It’s tough to watch happen. I was wracking my brain trying to see if it was something I did wrong, but I acclimated properly and was pretty diligent in the process. Happy/not happy to hear it wasn’t just me. But, they made it right, and no disease that I could see, so I don’t have anything negative to say about them.

 

[Pickle_soup]

It’s tough to watch happen. I was wracking my brain trying to see if it was something I did wrong, but I acclimated properly and was pretty diligent in the process. Happy/not happy to hear it wasn’t just me. But, they made it right, and no disease that I could see, so I don’t have anything negative to say about them.

Yeah, they definitely Qt them properly. Maybe some of the fish are just too stressed after copper to be shipped and just don't do well. I think I will ask them to hold them a bit longer. So the 50%er is a thin two-spot hogfish that is just hanging out near the surface. McCosker's Flasher Wrasse will most likely die. It's a replacement too, first one DOA. Not getting another one. And two yellowhead jawfish DOA today. Surprisingly, a replacement cleaner wrasse is doing very well, it's eating frozen and is annoying its tank mates.

 

[SaracensRugby]

So tough to find a good place that sells "clean" fish.